Giving credit to LEN3 for calling Twins to account on CF situation

[jokin]

Which is not a bad break. It's a mismanagement of that player on some level or another. What we don't know, but other than Presley being a criminal of some kind the fault for that lies with management.

 

It's not a bad break, it's bad management of your roster. That's the distinction that continues to create a disagreement here. You want to give a pass to management on that and I don't see how, in any way, they deserve that.

 

Since the Twins dealt for Presley last season, you would think that they had done due diligence on Presley's background throughout the 2013 season. This rationale on Presley's suddenly discovered alleged lack of character really doesn't add up.

[Mike Sixel]

And now they have 2 OF on the roster, plus Herrmann.....2. That seems bad to me, but I could be wrong.

[TheLeviathan]

Since the Twins dealt for Presley last season, you would think that they had done due diligence on Presley's background throughout the 2013 season. This rationale on Presley's suddenly discovered alleged lack of character really doesn't add up.

 

Right, I don't buy the "Presley was a bad guy" as an out for the front office. They traded for him. They brought him to Spring Training. They chose to have him be their fourth outfielder until the bitter end. That's on management and no one else.

[jokin]

I agree, but it is/was close. While Hicks is certainly younger and hopefully has a better future, he's darn near an equivalent replacement level performer right now, and the depth behind him was worse. The combo of Hicks+Bartlett+Mastro could have definitely rivaled Florimon+Escobar+Santana (+Nunez/Beresford).

 

And both positions are from where you frequently derive leadoff man candidates, of which the Twins still have none, and nor do their AAA and AA teams, until Buxton gets called up from Ft. Myers.

[Otto von Ballpark]

And you missed an important caveat. Had Fuld not fallen into their laps at an ideal time...we'd be seeing the like of Chris Hermann or Kenny Wilson in CF right now. So while Hermann may have a better OPS....I curl into the fetal position thinking of him manning the position. Wilson may actually give that OPS+ a run for it's money from what I can see.

 

So to keep score - the Twins had one thing go wrong and had another thing not gone very right....we could've seen a horrific CF situation.

 

Actually, we would be seeing Mastroianni. He was waived to make room for Fuld.

 

Of course, over the past calendar year, Mastro has looked about as bad as Herrmann or Kenny Wilson probably would be.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Thanks for blowing up the standard line about Hicks' status as a hindrance to upgrading the position. Brock, you're just too forgiving of the Twns on this point. Grady Sizemore has been quoted as saying the Twins never even contacted him. Bonifacio had no say in the matter on getting claimed and/or traded for. And the Twins aren't exactly known as rushing 20-year olds, not matter how good they project to be. It seems pretty clear that once they got past striking out on Davis, that they had promised Bartlett a spot and didn't even consider any other option that happened along, they even cut Jermaine Mitchell outright, to clear the depth decks even more. "Baffling", indeed.

 

The timelines don't work. The Twins had Presley when Bonifacio was available. Again, that's the crux of this matter. What happened between the Twins and Presley between February 15th (the day the Cubs signed Bonifacio) and the end of March?

 

Let's not let the tail wag the dog here. Bonifacio has a career OPS+ of 81 compared to Alex Presley's OPS+ of 96. Until Bonifacio started hitting four weeks ago, he was nobody's savior and most on this board would have taken Presley over him in a heartbeat. He's a year younger with a better track record.

 

As for Sizemore, he signed in January. People are retroactively suggesting that the Twins should have been looking for a worse centerfielder than they already had on the roster in Presley.

[jokin]

I'm not protecting anyone. I've been a LOUD opponent of Florimon being anywhere near an MLB roster for almost a year now... Louder than anyone else on this forum, I'd wager.

 

More than one thing went wrong... The second thing that went wrong was whatever happened with Presley. As I've mentioned in this thread, that entire situation is baffling from start to finish.

 

And, no, the CF situation is not worse than Florimon and shortstop. Pedro Florimon has an OPS+ of 5.

 

No, I didn't skip a digit there. His OPS+ is 5.

 

Finding guys like Sam Fuld just isn't that hard. This thread has tossed around a half dozen names of his calibre, if not better. It's no surprise the Twins were able to find him and play musical chairs with the fourth outfielder position.

 

Eric Komatsu and Clete Thomas say "Hi". This whole 25th man argument redux....yeesh.....who you hire for your 24th/25th man can be better than just these types on the fringes of baseball- if only you just plan this out and prioritize a little better. Instead we got from management: "Oh well, we struck out on Rajai....we'll try harder next time." And given the Twins current depth chart in CF, going all the way down to AA, the evidence indicates that the Twins have not only failed at bolstering this position from the day the traded Span and Revere.....they've somehow gone backwards in terms of depthbuilding.

[jokin]

The timelines don't work. The Twins had Presley when Bonifacio was available. Again, that's the crux of this matter. What happened between the Twins and Presley between February 15th (the day the Cubs signed Bonifacio) and the end of March?

 

Let's not let the tail wag the dog here. Bonifacio has a career OPS+ of 81 compared to Alex Presley's OPS+ of 96. Until Bonifacio started hitting four weeks ago, he was nobody's savior and most on this board would have taken Presley over him in a heartbeat. He's a year younger with a better track record.

 

As for Sizemore, he signed in January. People are retroactively suggesting that the Twins should have been looking for a worse centerfielder than they already had on the roster in Presley.

 

Was Presley a leadoff hitter candidate? Was Presley the baserunner that Bonifacio is? Was Presley the Super Util that could play a decent 2nd and 3rd base, as well as a fairly good CF?

 

Regarding Sizemore, I was one who loudly suggested the Twins make an offer once it was announced he was coming back, should he prove to be healthy. It was the perfect, Kubel-type, buy-low with no risk move. Only his cost was much lower to buy into than Kubel is.

[Guest USAFChief]

I'm not giving them a pass, I'm questioning what happened. If they just released Presley for no real reason, that wasn't a smart move. In fact, that was a pretty bad move, especially because they replaced him with Jason Bartlett.

I keep coming back to this...both the CF and SS problem involve the decision to keep Bartlett. And I still think the Twins were aware Florimon was likely to need replacing, and were hoping to catch cheap lightning in a bottle with Bartlett somehow turning the clock back 5 years. Having him serve as a super utility guy was simply a way to keep him around until he was needed, and Pressley's roster spot was the cost to do so. None of that happens if they actually address SS over the winter.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Was Presley a leadoff hitter candidate? Was Presley the baserunner that Bonifacio is? Was Presley the Super Util that could play a decent 2nd and 3rd base, as well as a fairly good CF?

 

Regarding Sizemore, I was one who loudly suggested the Twins make an offer once it was announced he was coming back, should he prove to be healthy. It was the perfect, Kubel-type, buy-low with no risk move. Only his cost was much lower to buy into than Kubel is.

 

And that's fine. You would have preferred the Twins sign other players... But that doesn't imply incompetence or mismanagement on their part.

 

What we do know is that Presley was an adequate backup or stop-gap CF measure. The Twins had him under contract.

 

What we don't know is why they waived him. It could have been gross incompetence by management. It could have been something else. We simply don't know.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I keep coming back to this...both the CF and SS problem involve the decision to keep Bartlett. And I still think the Twins were aware Florimon was likely to need replacing, and were hoping to catch cheap lightning in a bottle with Bartlett somehow turning the clock back 5 years. Having him serve as a super utility guy was simply a way to keep him around until he was needed, and Pressley's roster spot was the cost to do so. None of that happens if they actually address SS over the winter.

 

If their failure to address either shortstop or centerfield is because of Jason Bartlett, words escape how I feel about that.

[S.]

Not sure where injury plays in here. Buxton was not a solution for at least the first half of this year, if not the whole year.

I don't understand where some people seem to be getting this idea that Buxton was coming up this year at all, let alone in June or July. Am I missing something? Even without the injury, there was no way in hell he was coming up for anything more than a September call up and I can't even see any chance they were going to start his clock for that.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't understand where some people seem to be getting this idea that Buxton was coming up this year at all, let alone in June or July. Am I missing something? Even without the injury, there was no way in hell he was coming up for anything more than a September call up and I can't even see any chance they were going to start his clock for that.

 

I agree, I was trying to throw the people arguing there was a AA CF option a bone.....

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't understand where some people seem to be getting this idea that Buxton was coming up this year at all, let alone in June or July. Am I missing something? Even without the injury, there was no way in hell he was coming up for anything more than a September call up and I can't even see any chance they were going to start his clock for that.

 

I felt the same way until the Twins started jettisoning pitchers and players with reckless abandon. Near the end of March, it seemed as if they may have had a change of heart about aggressively pushing the kids onto the roster.

[Guest USAFChief]

If their failure to address either shortstop or centerfield is because of Jason Bartlett, words escape how I feel about that.

Isnt that the simplest explanation? He. Made. The. Opening. Day. Roster.

[jokin]

And that's fine. You would have preferred the Twins sign other players... But that doesn't imply incompetence or mismanagement on their part.

 

What we do know is that Presley was an adequate backup or stop-gap CF measure. The Twins had him under contract.

 

What we don't know is why they waived him. It could have been gross incompetence by management. It could have been something else. We simply don't know.

 

What? 2 seasons now. Still no competent leadoff man, all the way down to AA. Still no quality OF depth. Going into 2014 with an Epically Proportioned Failed 2013 CF (who refused management's wishes to go to winter ball) and a 34-year-old, out of baseball for the past 2 years, who had never played the position was the back-up (and not to forget, "Team Chemist"- guess our depth is deficient at that spot now, too). That qualifies in my book as both incompetence and mismanagement.

[Mike Sixel]

If it is not mismanagement to only have 2 OF on the 25 man roster, I don't know what is.

[Guest USAFChief]

Also wanted to say this has been a very entertaining and enlightening thread to read, with many though get provoking and well stated positions on all sides of the issue.

[S.]

I agree, I was trying to throw the people arguing there was a AA CF option a bone.....

Poor quoting on my part. I was agreeing with your post, confused by the people you were responding to.

[Brock Beauchamp]

What? 2 seasons now. Still no competent leadoff man, all the way down to AA. Still no quality OF depth. Going into 2014 with an Epically Proportioned Failed 2013 CF (who refused management's wishes to go to winter ball) and a 34-year-old, out of baseball for the past 2 years, who had never played the position was the back-up (and not to forget, "Team Chemist"- guess our depth is deficient at that spot now, too). That qualifies in my book as both incompetence and mismanagement.

 

And that's where we differ in opinion, I guess. I don't care about a "leadoff man". Put a high OBP guy in the leadoff spot and be done with it. I'm not a big believer in needing speed at the top of a lineup.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Isnt that the simplest explanation? He. Made. The. Opening. Day. Roster.

 

It's possible, it's just so mind-blowingly stupid that I can't believe anyone would actually do it.

[jokin]

And that's where we differ in opinion, I guess. I don't care about a "leadoff man". Put a high OBP guy in the leadoff spot and be done with it. I'm not a big believer in needing speed at the top of a lineup.

 

If only we had just one of those besides Joe Mauer. And whither all the arguments that Mauer gets no respect because of his lackluster run production?- it's directly related to both low OBP and lack of speed guys at both the bottom of the order and the top of the order.

[TheLeviathan]

What we don't know is why they waived him. It could have been gross incompetence by management. It could have been something else. We simply don't know.

 

What else is there exactly? I'm honestly perplexed what kind of thing would've led to that decision that can't be traced back to a management decision. A few examples would help this notion you keep espousing.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The timelines don't work. The Twins had Presley when Bonifacio was available.

 

The Twins also had Presley when they were pursuing Rajai Davis earlier in the offseason.

 

I guess they could have had them ranked 1) Davis, 2) Presley, 3) Bonifacio etc., but they just as well could have thought less of Presley than their roster construction suggested the whole time. Wouldn't be the first time.

[Brock Beauchamp]

If only we had just one of those besides Joe Mauer. And whither all the arguments that Mauer gets no respect because of his lackluster run production?- it's directly related to both low OBP and lack of speed guys at both the bottom of the order and the top of the order.

 

As it turns out, there are actually several decent OBP guys on the team right now. Dozier is doing just fine in the leadoff position.

 

And I couldn't care less about Joe Mauer's "run production". You know that, jokin.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The Twins also had Presley when they were pursuing Rajai Davis earlier in the offseason.

 

I guess they could have had them ranked 1) Davis, 2) Presley, 3) Bonifacio etc., but they just as well could have thought less of Presley than their roster construction suggested the whole time. Wouldn't be the first time.

 

And if that's the case, they should have acquired somebody else. It doesn't make sense to hold onto a guy for 2+ months as your backup CF option and then jettison him, knowing there isn't a capable replacement.

 

That is gross mismanagement. If that's truly what happened, then the front office doesn't really have a leg to stand on... But we don't know that's what happened.

[PseudoSABR]

What else is there exactly? I'm honestly perplexed what kind of thing would've led to that decision that can't be traced back to a management decision. A few examples would help this notion you keep espousing.

It matters which management decision we are critiquing. I'd tend to criticize the acquisition of Presley as opposed to his release. I'd also critique the Twins evaluation of both Bartlett's ability and commitment to play baseball. They had Mastro, Hicks, and Buxton (seemingly*) in the fold. They've lost Mastro, and acquired Fuld and Wilson. While guys like Bonafacio would have been an upgrade to the depth, such depth would be a boon at every up the middle position.

 

There's not a lot of quality depth at up middle positions, period. The Twins should have anticipated these problems better, I agree, but I don't no that there were quick and easy means of amending the lack of depth either.

 

* My guess is that they minimized the injury to Buxton in their minds, and viewed him as closer to major league ready than they've been willing to lead on. So there was little need to further address the position.

[jokin]

As it turns out, there are actually several decent OBP guys on the team right now. Dozier is doing just fine in the leadoff position.

 

And I couldn't care less about Joe Mauer's "run production". You know that, jokin.

 

The Mauer thing was a throwaway for the unwashed masses. And you and I are both now on the record for noting that vast regression is already underway teamwide- it's fair to predict that most of the current high OBP guys will be at or below their career norms by June 1 (hence the perfect time in GardyWorld to reduce the roster to 11 position players, I guess, but that's a corollary topic). This includes Dozier, who as much as I am on his bandwagon, is likely to regress closer to his .304 career OBP, than his current .357 OBP. You certainly have to admit that Dozier is a less than ideal top-of-the-order guy, whether you buy into traditional leadoff expectations or not.

[Riverbrian]

I keep coming back to this...both the CF and SS problem involve the decision to keep Bartlett. And I still think the Twins were aware Florimon was likely to need replacing, and were hoping to catch cheap lightning in a bottle with Bartlett somehow turning the clock back 5 years. Having him serve as a super utility guy was simply a way to keep him around until he was needed, and Pressley's roster spot was the cost to do so. None of that happens if they actually address SS over the winter.

 

I'm right with ya... As long as I stare at this puzzle... And why and how and who... It keeps leading back to Bartlett making the team.

 

It's a 25th man spot and that 25th spot is low priority but the priority gets much larger when the 18th and 19th spots are 25th man like.

 

I really don't want to hang anyone for this... But... My curiosity is killing me... Who was the Bartlett Guy with the clout to push this through.

[PseudoSABR]

Isnt that the simplest explanation? He. Made. The. Opening. Day. Roster.

I think Bartlett prevented them from further addressing the depth of either position; i.e. they didn't acquire more candidates for the 25th man. I find it more likely that the Twins were rosy-eyed in-love with their prospects at both positions and never were in the market for anything other than depth at either position. It's fair to fault them for that; but Bartlett wasn't the reason they didn't address CF or SS, Buxton/Hicks/Polanco/Santana/Escobar/Florimon were.