Giving credit to LEN3 for calling Twins to account on CF situation

[Blackjack]

Well, going into March, they had two solid prospects at the position. One failed, the other is injured. They rolled the dice with young players and it failed. I'm not going to throw a fit about that happening.

 

Exactly!!! The Twins did what a lot of people on this board advocate all the time 'go with young players, play the players that will be here when the Twins team is good', they do it, then they get blasted anyway when it doesn't work out. It makes it hard to read thru the comments - but after awhile you learn which ones to take to heart and which ones to ignore.

 

Twins management can't win. When they were winning division titles they were still getting blasted for not winning the World Series.

 

Chill out and enjoy the games!!

[Brock Beauchamp]

You and me both... Because that's where we stumbled into repeating the 2013 scenario.

 

All in All... It's the first time in a long time... That I'm straining for an answer. I usually... at least can justify moves I disagree with.

 

I can say to myself... "Well they obviously feel this way"... and I move on with my day.

 

I just can't do it here. And your not helping me clear up my confusion.

 

It's baffling. It's just baffling. From an on-the-field-performance standpoint and from a depth standpoint, Presley was a shoe-in for the 40 man roster.

 

Yet he was released. Something had to have happened there.

[Mike Sixel]

Are they trying to win or not?

 

 

From where I sit, it isn't clear they know the answer to this question. They did not deal vets at their peak, they did not sign any legit FAs last year, and they made some odd decisions this year that looked like the answer was both "yes we are trying to compete" and "no, we are rebuilding". This, actually, has been one of my biggest issues with this FO. They have not committed to a strategy. If they have, and this is a rebuild, it is an approach that looks off a bit.

[PseudoSABR]

It's baffling. It's just baffling. From an on-the-field-performance standpoint and from a depth standpoint, Presley was a shoe-in for the 40 man roster.

 

Yet he was released. Something had to have happened there.

I'm with you guys. The on-field evidence puts him on the 25 man; so we're left with off-the-field issues as the culprit. And this is my main criticism. Part of the scouting profile must include abstractions like attitude and work ethic. Too often the Twins acquire players where its readily apparent they don't fit into the Twins culture.

[Otto von Ballpark]

So you have Hicks, a former top 100 prospect as of just last season. 4+ months behind him, you have the best prospect in baseball.

 

Who is going to sign with the Twins at that point? Nobody better than a Presley/Fuld-type of player.

 

Bonifacio was available as a waiver claim.

 

Also, Grady Sizemore signed with a team that had a top 30 prospect with MLB experience ahead of him in CF (Jackie Bradley), and indeed did not beat him for the starting job.

 

And I dispute the notion that an absolute best-case scenario July promotion for a 20 year old A-ball prospect is taken into any serious consideration by free agents entertaining one-year contract offers.

[PseudoSABR]

Fuld was DFA'd on April 12, five days before Bartlett told the Twins of his intent to retire. The Twins already knew he was heading for waivers -- guys don't sign minor league deals in February to get traded for anything of note in April.

 

And the Twins' belief that Bartlett could still play "may not have been wrong"? That has been proven wrong about as much as any judgement about high-level professional athletes can be.

I remembered that poorly, mea culpa. They certainly reacted slowly. I admit Bartlett looked bad, but we saw only a few games, I'm not willing to say it as definitively as you, though I tend to agree; and in any case, Fuld was already a better option than Bartlett. If undue loyalty to Bartlett cost them Mastro, that's assbackwards.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Bonifacio was available as a waiver claim.

 

Also, Grady Sizemore signed with a team that had a top 30 prospect with MLB experience ahead of him in CF (Jackie Bradley), and indeed did not beat him for the starting job.

 

And I dispute the notion that an absolute best-case scenario July promotion for a 20 year old A-ball prospect is taken into any serious consideration by free agents entertaining one-year contract offers.

 

Too many topics going back and forth in this thread...

 

Yes, the Twins could have gone after different guys... But they had Presley until the end of March. That's where everything took a turn for the weird. That one move set all of this into motion.

 

As for free agents worrying about Buxton, it wasn't only Buxton... What if the vet started off slowly and Hicks raked in AAA for a month? Then what happens if Buxton continues to rip it up in New Britain?

 

I just don't see a scenario where anyone of quality would want to sign with this team with those two guys waiting in the wings.

 

Could they have done better? Absolutely, particularly if they knew Presley was a problem. That's the origin of this mess, in my opinion.

[PseudoSABR]

Bonifacio was available as a waiver claim.

 

Also, Grady Sizemore signed with a team that had a top 30 prospect with MLB experience ahead of him in CF (Jackie Bradley), and indeed did not beat him for the starting job.

 

And I dispute the notion that an absolute best-case scenario July promotion for a 20 year old A-ball prospect is taken into any serious consideration by free agents entertaining one-year contract offers.

A guy like Kalish was out there too. But we had our guys in Hicks and Presley, with Mastro at depth, and Buxton coming off the AFL. It's roster dumbfoolery and injury that bring us here, not a failure in free agency.

[Brock Beauchamp]

If undue loyalty to Bartlett cost them Mastro, that's assbackwards.

 

I think we can get one of those rare "100% agreement, Twins Daily approved" stamps for this comment.

[SwainZag]

From where I sit, it isn't clear they know the answer to this question. They did not deal vets at their peak, they did not sign any legit FAs last year, and they made some odd decisions this year that looked like the answer was both "yes we are trying to compete" and "no, we are rebuilding". This, actually, has been one of my biggest issues with this FO. They have not committed to a strategy. If they have, and this is a rebuild, it is an approach that looks off a bit.

 

The way I see your post is there are more than two options than simply A)rebuilding and B)Trying to compete. There are blurred lines you are seeing right past. Signing some starting pitchers this year doesn't exactly tell me "YES, THIS IS THE YEAR!" They are multiple year deals for each player.

 

I see it as simply a stepping stone in the building process. They have young players up this year, they have younger players stepping on the horizon and they have veterans on the team holding down starting positions. It's all a process towards building a winner. The problem is too many people want to win and want to win now instead of going through the process, and unfortunately it rarely works that way.

[Mike Sixel]

Not sure where injury plays in here. Buxton was not a solution for at least the first half of this year, if not the whole year. But I could be wrong, maybe Buxton would come up this year.

[Otto von Ballpark]

To me, all of this hinges on "what the hell happened with Presley?" Everything surrounding that situation was confusing to outsiders. I can't believe they would just give up on him without an underlying reason.

 

I thought about that too, but they pursued Rajai Davis. At that point, it seemed clear they didn't want/expect Presley to start in 2014.

 

Why they stopped their CF search after Davis, and passed on other options to compete with Hicks/Presley, I'm not sure.

[Mike Sixel]

The way I see your post is there are more than two options than simply A)rebuilding and B)Trying to compete. There are blurred lines you are seeing right past. Signing some starting pitchers this year doesn't exactly tell me "YES, THIS IS THE YEAR!" They are multiple year deals for each player.

 

I see it as simply a stepping stone in the building process. They have young players up this year, they have younger players stepping on the horizon and they have veterans on the team holding down starting positions. It's all a process towards building a winner. The problem is too many people want to win and want to win now instead of going through the process, and unfortunately it rarely works that way.

 

Not trading Willingham when he was healthy and raking....that was a team that could not decide what it wanted to do, imo. Signing Doumit? All about the present, and not giving some younger players a shot. Signing Pelfrey and trying to get Garza after that? That implied they were not planning for both (either?) Meyer and May to be up this year, imo, since they'd have 7 starters in the majors at that point.

 

If you are implying that I do not understand this is a process, well, you are mistaken. I completely understand this is a process.

[Riverbrian]

It's baffling. It's just baffling. From an on-the-field-performance standpoint and from a depth standpoint, Presley was a shoe-in for the 40 man roster.

 

Yet he was released. Something had to have happened there.

 

Just to add to the bafflement... If we can focus on me for a quick second.

 

Over 7,000 posts on this website and I think it's been established that I... Am... Extremely EASY to please.

 

Florimon... No Problem... Suzuki... No Problem... I think players can change on a dime and perform.

 

I love Sam Fuld and players like him... If they would have brought in a Sam Fuld type in February or March or October... I would have shut up about it. That's all it would have taken for me.

 

If I... of all people... is looking at a roster in February and saying to himself... We ain't got nobody in CF and we ain't got nobody behind nobody either. How bad is it?

 

Bonofacio would have fixed this. How good would he be looking in the leadoff spot right now... moving Dozier into an RBI spot. Speed on base in front of Mauer.

 

I know... I know... I gotta walk it off.

[Otto von Ballpark]

As for free agents worrying about Buxton, it wasn't only Buxton... What if the vet started off slowly and Hicks raked in AAA for a month? Then what happens if Buxton continues to rip it up in New Britain?

 

Going by this standard, no free agent would ever sign anywhere. Hicks isn't nothing, but he was closer to Joe Benson circa 2013 than he was to Jackie Bradley Jr. as far as threatening to take anyone's job. And Buxton was still a year away from replacing anyone by any reasonable standard (not that they couldn't fit him in somewhere if he was indeed raking, like Denard playing RF as a rookie).

 

Not saying it's never a factor, but in these cases, it's probably easily dwarfed by the always-dominant factor of money.

[nicksaviking]

Exactly!!! The Twins did what a lot of people on this board advocate all the time 'go with young players, play the players that will be here when the Twins team is good', they do it, then they get blasted anyway when it doesn't work out. It makes it hard to read thru the comments - but after awhile you learn which ones to take to heart and which ones to ignore.

 

Twins management can't win. When they were winning division titles they were still getting blasted for not winning the World Series.

 

Chill out and enjoy the games!!

 

The Twins didn't go with many young players though. They left the gate with Hicks and Arcia as starters and Pinto as a backup catcher. The Twins only have three players under the age of 25, one being a middle reliever and another (Arcia) in "rehab" games in the minors. The Twins only have the 12th youngest roster, there are too many players here that are not a part of the rebuild.

 

The Twins management can win. By winning. I'm not sure why it's unreasonable for Twins fans to want their team to win and win the World Series at that. Are we simply supposed to be satisfied that they put a team on the field?

[Otto von Ballpark]

A guy like Kalish was out there too. But we had our guys in Hicks and Presley, with Mastro at depth, and Buxton coming off the AFL. It's roster dumbfoolery and injury that bring us here, not a failure in free agency.

 

Why did we go after Rajai Davis then? I think Presley was a real Hicks alternative about as much as Pedro Hernandez was a Liriano replacement.

 

This team gambled on rushing Hicks one year, and then very quickly and quietly assented to repeat it again. Reminds me a little of the 2013 rotation plan -- it's like they knew it was an issue, both in terms of current performance and player development, but didn't show a whole lot of urgency to address it in the offseason either.

[LaBombo]

Exactly!!! The Twins did what a lot of people on this board advocate all the time 'go with young players, play the players that will be here when the Twins team is good', they do it, then they get blasted anyway when it doesn't work out.

While there were varying opinions on where Hicks should have started the year, there was fairly widespread belief that opening the season with Jason Bartlett as his only backup on the 25 man (and Mastro as the only other backup above A ball, for that matter) was a mistake.

 

And it was. Wanting to see the Twins develop and play the kids while expecting them to have a realistic Plan B for when they fail, either temporarily or permanently, isn't a contradiction in any way that I can see.

[jokin]

Just to add to the bafflement... If we can focus on me for a quick second.

 

Over 7,000 posts on this website and I think it's been established that I... Am... Extremely EASY to please.

 

Florimon... No Problem... Suzuki... No Problem... I think players can change on a dime and perform.

 

I love Sam Fuld and players like him... If they would have brought in a Sam Fuld type in February or March or October... I would have shut up about it. That's all it would have taken for me.

 

If I... of all people... is looking at a roster in February and saying to himself... We ain't got nobody in CF and we ain't got nobody behind nobody either. How bad is it?

 

Bonofacio would have fixed this. How good would he be looking in the leadoff spot right now... moving Dozier into an RBI spot. Speed on base in front of Mauer.

 

I know... I know... I gotta walk it off.

 

When, in the Universe of Twins Fandom, both the biggest softies (like YOU) and biggest SOBs (like ME) agree on something, it's probably as certain a Certitude of Twins Truthiness as their could possibly be.

 

Now....go take a hike...(I myself pace the floor every time the Cubs and Twins are on at the same time. My set has an alert system for every time Bonifacio gets another hit, protecting it from me throwing another shoe through the screen.)

[jokin]

While there were varying opinions on where Hicks should have started the year, there was fairly widespread belief that opening the season with Jason Bartlett as his only backup on the 25 man (and Mastro as the only other backup above A ball, for that matter) was a mistake.

 

And it was. Wanting to see the Twins develop and play the kids while expecting them to have a realistic Plan B for when they fail, either temporarily or permanently, isn't a contradiction in any way that I can see.

 

Methinks you are being far too kind. In the hierarchy of business misteps, a mistake is when you forget to bring the paperwork to a deal, this Bartlett affair, with other options dangling themselves into March, more rightly qualifies as a "myopic blunder" in my book.

[TheLeviathan]

My point is that sometimes, you need to just rely on prospects and say "you're our guy this season" and hope it works out.

 

If said prospect flamed out badly the previous year and you aren't blocking anyone in AAA - there is zero excuse not to have a better Plan B. Plan B, for all I care, could have been your fourth outfielder on the 25 man who could at least provide some quality.

 

The problem is that you tried to protect management by saying "a few" things went wrong when, in reality, only one thing went wrong. And then they had the good fortune to have Fuld dropped in their lap. Had Fuld not been waived this position, right now, would be in worse shape than Florimon and shortstop. It may still reach those levels if Fuld does what got him waived in the first place.

 

I'm not sure why you're going to such lengths to dismiss an obvious lack of planning. Which, to another poster's point...what meaningful distinction is there in misappraisal vs. mismanagement? Appraisal of talent is part of management's job. It's a distinction with no difference other than sounding better for the front office. Whether the gaffe was in planning on Pressley being Plan B or doing the same Plan B as last year doesn't change that there is a ton of very obvious fault to go around on this one.

 

Good general managing involves appraising your roster for weaknesses. Depth at CF was apparently on that radar at one point, stopped, then became a bunch of musical chairs, and now rests in the hands of a young player who is showing nothing to indicate he's ready and a recently waived pair of journeyman. Not. Good. Management. And all that happened was one thing went wrong that has already happened once and had very good odds of happening again.

[jokin]

Why did we go after Rajai Davis then? I think Presley was a real Hicks alternative about as much as Pedro Hernandez was a Liriano replacement.

 

This team gambled on rushing Hicks one year, and then very quickly and quietly assented to repeat it again. Reminds me a little of the 2013 rotation plan -- it's like they knew it was an issue, both in terms of current performance and player development, but didn't show a whole lot of urgency to address it in the offseason either.

 

"Doubling Down" is I believe what it's called. They did this on Hicks, they did this on Florimon, and they did this on Pelfrey (and although I was opposed to signing Pelfrey, I admit I accepted the Twins rationale for signing him once they struck out on Garza).

[Brock Beauchamp]

The problem is that you tried to protect management by saying "a few" things went wrong when, in reality, only one thing went wrong. And then they had the good fortune to have Fuld dropped in their lap. Had Fuld not been waived this position, right now, would be in worse shape than Florimon and shortstop.

 

I'm not protecting anyone. I've been a LOUD opponent of Florimon being anywhere near an MLB roster for almost a year now... Louder than anyone else on this forum, I'd wager.

 

More than one thing went wrong... The second thing that went wrong was whatever happened with Presley. As I've mentioned in this thread, that entire situation is baffling from start to finish.

 

And, no, the CF situation is not worse than Florimon and shortstop. Pedro Florimon has an OPS+ of 5.

 

No, I didn't skip a digit there. His OPS+ is 5.

 

Finding guys like Sam Fuld just isn't that hard. This thread has tossed around a half dozen names of his calibre, if not better. It's no surprise the Twins were able to find him and play musical chairs with the fourth outfielder position.

[Otto von Ballpark]

While there were varying opinions on where Hicks should have started the year, there was fairly widespread belief that opening the season with Jason Bartlett as his only backup on the 25 man (and Mastro as the only other backup above A ball, for that matter) was a mistake.

 

Actually, it was slightly worse -- Bartlett was the only CF backup on the 40-man roster too (Mastro had to be added when he was recalled in early April, only to be waived just over a week later to get Fuld as we dithered about Bartlett's retirement).

[TheLeviathan]

More than one thing went wrong... The second thing that went wrong was whatever happened with Presley. As I've mentioned in this thread, that entire situation is baffling from start to finish.

 

Which is not a bad break. It's a mismanagement of that player on some level or another. What we don't know, but other than Presley being a criminal of some kind the fault for that lies with management.

 

It's not a bad break, it's bad management of your roster. That's the distinction that continues to create a disagreement here. You want to give a pass to management on that and I don't see how, in any way, they deserve that.

[jokin]

Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp So you have Hicks, a former top 100 prospect as of just last season. 4+ months behind him, you have the best prospect in baseball.

 

Who is going to sign with the Twins at that point? Nobody better than a Presley/Fuld-type of player.

 

 

Bonifacio was available as a waiver claim.

 

Also, Grady Sizemore signed with a team that had a top 30 prospect with MLB experience ahead of him in CF (Jackie Bradley), and indeed did not beat him for the starting job.

 

And I dispute the notion that an absolute best-case scenario July promotion for a 20 year old A-ball prospect is taken into any serious consideration by free agents entertaining one-year contract offers.

 

Thanks for blowing up the standard line about Hicks' status as a hindrance to upgrading the position. Brock, you're just too forgiving of the Twns on this point. Grady Sizemore has been quoted as saying the Twins never even contacted him. Bonifacio had no say in the matter on getting claimed and/or traded for. And the Twins aren't exactly known for rushing 20-year olds, no matter how good they project to be. It seems pretty clear that once they got past striking out on Davis, that they had promised Bartlett a spot and didn't even consider any other option that happened along, they even cut Jermaine Mitchell outright, to clear the depth decks even more. "Baffling", indeed.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Which is not a bad break. It's a mismanagement of that player on some level or another. What we don't know, but other than Presley being a criminal of some kind the fault for that lies with management.

 

It's not a bad break, it's bad management of your roster. That's the distinction that continues to create a disagreement here. You want to give a pass to management on that and I don't see how, in any way, they deserve that.

 

I'm not giving them a pass, I'm questioning what happened. If they just released Presley for no real reason, that wasn't a smart move. In fact, that was a pretty bad move, especially because they replaced him with Jason Bartlett.

[TheLeviathan]

IAnd, no, the CF situation is not worse than Florimon and shortstop. Pedro Florimon has an OPS+ of 5.

 

And you missed an important caveat. Had Fuld not fallen into their laps at an ideal time...we'd be seeing the like of Chris Hermann or Kenny Wilson in CF right now. So while Hermann may have a better OPS....I curl into the fetal position thinking of him manning the position. Wilson may actually give that OPS+ a run for it's money from what I can see.

 

So to keep score - the Twins had one thing go wrong and had another thing not gone very right....we could've seen a horrific CF situation.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm not giving them a pass, I'm questioning what happened. If they just released Presley for no real reason, that wasn't a smart move. In fact, that was a pretty bad move, especially because they replaced him with Jason Bartlett.

 

They targeted him, in a trade, and kept him on the roster well into March. Sorry, but if he failed so spectacularly to be dumped and leave you with nothing but Bartlett for CF....the mistake STILL rests on management.

[Otto von Ballpark]

And, no, the CF situation is not worse than Florimon and shortstop. Pedro Florimon has an OPS+ of 5.

 

I agree, but it is/was close. While Hicks is certainly younger and hopefully has a better future, he's darn near an equivalent replacement level performer right now, and the depth behind him was worse. The combo of Hicks+Bartlett+Mastro could have definitely rivaled Florimon+Escobar+Santana (+Nunez/Beresford).