Giving credit to LEN3 for calling Twins to account on CF situation

[Otto von Ballpark]

Were you not around for the whole Ramos trade debacle? Everyone knew Mauer's time at catcher was limited. Butera was the backup with no options in site. Catcher depth was a frequent topic. I don't think that many people saw Pinto as the the next everyday catcher before last season.

 

Brock was discussing debates prior to this season -- as I mention in my post, 2010-2011 was epically bad in terms of catcher depth. This season, depth wasn't much of a concern.

[Mike Sixel]

No hitters in AA either.....that's a problem too. And, no hitters in AAA either, that's a problem too.

[Brock Beauchamp]

No hitters in AA either.....that's a problem too. And, no hitters in AAA either, that's a problem too.

 

Injuries and suspensions caused that to happen. When you have your top two hitting prospects go down in March and your third best hitter get suspended, it's going to cause issues.

[Mike Sixel]

True, but Sano should be in MN, meaning there would still be no one in AAA. And Rosario would give you one in AA, and not sure where Buxton would have started the year (I think A for 2-3 months was their plan). So, I guess they could have 1 in AA and one more in high A right now.

[Brock Beauchamp]

True, but Sano should be in MN, meaning there would still be no one in AAA. And Rosario would give you one in AA, and not sure where Buxton would have started the year (I think A for 2-3 months was their plan). So, I guess they could have 1 in AA and one more in high A right now.

 

Everything I read said Buxton was starting the season in New Britain.

 

But you're right about Sano.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I never said the rotation was full of MLB-quality players... AAA rotations are almost never full of MLB-quality players.

 

I said the rotation was very good, which it is. It has one impact guy, another guy who looks like he might become an impact guy, and then depth guys. That's what you want a AAA rotation to look like. A couple of guys on the brink of joining the MLB team and then fall-back options should MLB pitchers get injured.

 

The biggest flaw I see in the Twins' minor league rotation(s) right now is that there's really nothing at New Britain. They have a quality rotation in AAA and several solid prospects in the low minors but AA is pretty barren right now. I expect to see that change soon but it's not a perfect scenario.

 

Well, again, you said it in the context of crediting the front office for something positive, to counterbalance their various fumblings like the topic of this thread. But really, the current Twins AAA rotation isn't so much of a positive as a common standard. One or two prospects, a couple more interesting depth guys to stay competitive. More than that (3 or 4 prospects), I'd say good job, front office! Less than that (and we've been less than that), we'd be disappointed.

 

And I share your concerns about the AA depth. Part of my AAA rotation judgement had an eye down to AA too -- if Meyer/May are for real and get promoted, there isn't another good prospect to replace them at AAA this season, maybe not even next season. As far as MLB futures are concerned, it's still a pretty shallow system (or bottom-heavy, at the moment).

 

Heck, from 2006-2011, the only good SP prospects we got that came anywhere near the majors are the still-suspect Gibson and Hendriks. 2012-2013 early returns look better, but as you say, those guys are still in A-ball, and no "future stars" have jumped out yet.

[PseudoSABR]

The notion that the Twins should have all of Fuld, Mastro, and Presley on the roster ignores the real nuance that lead to the limited options at CF. That said, we can agree that letting Presley go for Bartlett was a poor choice; either we didn't scout Presley well enough to know about his attitude or ability or we didn't evaluate Bartlett well enough during Spring Training to know taht he was done. Losing Mastro was an unfortunate extension of that, but it meant snagging Fold, who is probably an upgrade over both.

 

If we operated in a world without unexpected retirement bureaucracy, waiver-wire bureaucracy, and roster limitations, our exasperation over the CF crunch might make more sense. I see the situation as a combination of misfortune and misappraisal rather than mismanagement.

 

If the Twins could only keep one of Fuld, Mastro, Presley, they have the right one. That there isn't two layers of capable depth behind Hicks is a weakness shared by most ML clubs I imagine.

[Mike Sixel]

Most ML clubs have no one in the majors, AAA, or AA at CF?

[Riverbrian]

I make mistakes in my job and I assume all of us do. I believe the Twins make mistakes in bunches and some of those mistakes are mistakes we are miles from knowing about.

 

I also do a bunch of things right in my job and I assume all of us do. I believe the Twins front office does a lot of things right and some of those things done right... We are miles from knowing about.

 

With that said... I've said it before... I've looked at the roster a hundred times. I can't for the life of me understand the approach they took to CF this year. And I still don't understand 3B either.

 

Its one thing to give them a pass when CF blew up and left a mess all over 2013. OK... You thought Hicks would work... Ok.. It didn't... Oh well... Stuff happens... I forgive them because sometimes things don't work out.

 

But... It's another thing entirely to go into 2014 with the exact same scenerio... The exact same scenerio in CF that blew up in your face in 2013... and roll the dice once again on a young kid who failed badly in 2013 with no backup option. Why would you do it again?

 

I love Hicks... I think he will be something for us eventually but he is showing no signs of being ready. He should have started in AAA to prove something and a FA CF should have been signed.

 

Bonofacio should have been signed when KC released him. Speed... Leadoff... CF and 3B insurance. All things the Twins don't have!!!

 

Bartlett... Was a bad mistake!!! Trying to turn him into a Bonofacio is the biggest head scratcher I've seen in quite sometime.

 

Len3 is right... He's a smart guy... Anybody smart is going to be baffled by this.

 

I'll continue to give the FO the benefit of the doubt. But... I'm at the point where I want to know who drove the bus on Bartlett and the approach to CF and 3B... It makes no sense. I'd like to hear why they thought it makes sense. If its Gardy... I want to know. I really want to be educated on why so I can rest easy.

 

BTW... Plouffe has been great... If he gets hurt... I think it will get CF ugly over at the hot corner as well.

[Otto von Ballpark]

If we operated in a world without unexpected retirement bureaucracy, waiver-wire bureaucracy, and roster limitations, our exasperation over the CF crunch might make more sense. I see the situation as a combination of misfortune and misappraisal rather than mismanagement.

 

http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/2014/04/18/twinsights-jason-bartlett-informs-twins-he-plans-to-retire/

 

"Bartlett, 34, was in the starting lineup for Class A Fort Myers on Thursday but the situation was relayed to Miracle manager Doug Mientkiewicz about an hour before the game. Bartlett, on the 15-day disabled list with a sprained left ankle, made it through two days of extended spring training games in Fort Myers before voluntarily ending his rehab assignment.

 

Ryan Ware, Bartlett’s agent, contacted assistant general manager Rob Antony on Thursday to thank the team for the opportunity on behalf of Bartlett, who made the Opening Day roster despite missing nearly the past two full seasons with knee problems. Antony spoke with Bartlett on Friday and asked him to think over his decision for a few days, but the Twins are not expecting him to reconsider."

 

A nice courtesy, but at that point, why weren't we jumping at the chance to accept Bartlett's retirement?

[Brock Beauchamp]

BTW... Plouffe has been great... If he gets hurt... I think it will get CF ugly over at the hot corner as well.

 

While I agree that the Bartlett move was ridiculous and deserves ridicule (though I personally don't really care about 25th men), this sentence points out my problem with criticizing the team over depth issues.

 

Third base has Trevor Plouffe, who was expected to be supplanted by Sano early in the season. Sano got injured and now everything is riding on Plouffe staying healthy.

 

It's pretty unreasonable to expect a team to have more depth than that at any position.

 

While the Twins could have possibly picked up someone else to man CF, was that player going to be enough better than Sam Fuld for it to make a discernible difference?

[PseudoSABR]

Most ML clubs have no one in the majors, AAA, or AA at CF?

No most clubs don't have two ML CF (Fuld, [Presley/Mastro]) backups behind their starter (Hicks). Using Buxton's injury to extend your point to AA is needless hyperbole, and intellectually dishonest, as they just acquired Wilson from the Bluejays by using Mastro's roster spot.

[Mike Sixel]

How long should I continue to give the poeple that basically built this mess the benefit of the doubt*

 

*as a fan

[Mike Sixel]

My assumption was that Buxton would start in A*. At the beginning of the year, they had Hicks and Bartlett and who in AAA and AA as backup?

 

*even if he started in AA, does anyone think he'd have been up before July/August or later?

[PseudoSABR]

http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/2014/04/18/twinsights-jason-bartlett-informs-twins-he-plans-to-retire/

 

"Bartlett, 34, was in the starting lineup for Class A Fort Myers on Thursday but the situation was relayed to Miracle manager Doug Mientkiewicz about an hour before the game. Bartlett, on the 15-day disabled list with a sprained left ankle, made it through two days of extended spring training games in Fort Myers before voluntarily ending his rehab assignment.

 

Ryan Ware, Bartlett’s agent, contacted assistant general manager Rob Antony on Thursday to thank the team for the opportunity on behalf of Bartlett, who made the Opening Day roster despite missing nearly the past two full seasons with knee problems. Antony spoke with Bartlett on Friday and asked him to think over his decision for a few days, but the Twins are not expecting him to reconsider."

 

A nice courtesy, but at that point, why weren't we jumping at the chance to accept Bartlett's retirement?

For me, the suggestion that Bartlett take time speaks to their surprise, and their belief that he still could play (which may or may not have been wrong). They also didn't know Fuld would be waived a week later, which is what led to Mastro being waived (though we did get Wilson). For me, the problem is not realizing Bartlett's level of commitment.

[Mike Sixel]

While I agree that the Bartlett move was ridiculous and deserves ridicule (though I personally don't really care about 25th men), this sentence points out my problem with criticizing the team over depth issues.

 

Third base has Trevor Plouffe, who was expected to be supplanted by Sano early in the season. Sano got injured and now everything is riding on Plouffe staying healthy.

 

It's pretty unreasonable to expect a team to have more depth than that at any position.

 

While the Twins could have possibly picked up someone else to man CF, was that player going to be enough better than Sam Fuld for it to make a discernible difference?

 

Sam Fuld was not on teh roster at the beginning of the year.

[PseudoSABR]

My assumption was that Buxton would start in A*. At the beginning of the year, they had Hicks and Bartlett and who in AAA and AA as backup?

 

*even if he started in AA, does anyone think he'd have been up before July/August or later?

Well that assumption certainly benefits your argument...

 

They also had Mastro in AAA, and Buxton was thought to be back relatively quickly, Rosario has played center but he was suspended. They've since acquired Fuld and Wilson. You're just being hyperbolic about something that is weakness in most systems (center field depth).

 

Seriously, not every team weakness is a sign of managerial incompetence.

[Brock Beauchamp]

My assumption was that Buxton would start in A*. At the beginning of the year, they had Hicks and Bartlett and who in AAA and AA as backup?

 

*even if he started in AA, does anyone think he'd have been up before July/August or later?

 

The earliest I thought we'd see him was July.

 

So you have Hicks, a former top 100 prospect as of just last season. 4+ months behind him, you have the best prospect in baseball.

 

Who is going to sign with the Twins at that point? Nobody better than a Presley/Fuld-type of player.

 

Hence, we sit in a position with Sam Fuld as the CF.

 

Again, I think anger is directed the wrong place here. LENIII writes about the Twins not having CF depth... Well, going into March, they had two solid prospects at the position. One failed, the other is injured. They rolled the dice with young players and it failed. I'm not going to throw a fit about that happening.

 

Whereas the Twins willfully opened the 2014 season with a horrific hitter at shortstop and absolutely nobody worth mentioning behind him. Where is LENIII's outrage over that blunder?

 

I won't fault the team for rolling the dice on young, good players stepping up, especially when you have multiple young players at the position... but I will fault them for rolling the dice on middling, bad players doing the same at a critical infield position.

[PseudoSABR]

How long should I continue to give the poeple that basically built this mess the benefit of the doubt*

 

*as a fan

Well, you shouldn't read doubt either way. To give the Twins a pass is just as hasty and lazy as making the reverse assumption. There are more than two ways to regard Twins management practices. So much of this is unknown, that it's impossible to make definitive judgments either way, especially in May. On the other hand, your criticisms of the Twins FO are so heavy-handed and definitive, that those who agree with you but disagree only in a matter of degree, get roped into the Homer crowd. You honestly don't leave a lot of room for other reasonable assessments...

[Brock Beauchamp]

Sam Fuld was not on teh roster at the beginning of the year.

 

It's never hard to find Fuld/Mastro/Presley type players. Teams do it all season, every season.

[Mike Sixel]

Well, you shouldn't read doubt either way. To give the Twins a pass is just as hasty and lazy as making the reverse assumption. There are more than two ways to regard Twins management practices. So much of this is unknown, that it's impossible to make definitive judgments either way, especially in May. On the other hand, your criticism of the Twins FO are so heavy-handed and definitive, that those who agree with you but disagree only in a matter of degree, get roped into the Homer crowd. You honestly don't leave a lot of room for other reasonable assessments...

 

Man, earlier on this thread I thanked Brock for having a civil disagreement w/o commenting on each other....that lasted two pages.

[Otto von Ballpark]

With that said... I've said it before... I've looked at the roster a hundred times. I can't for the life of me understand the approach they took to CF this year. And I still don't understand 3B either.

 

Its one thing to give them a pass when CF blew up and left a mess all over 2013. OK... You thought Hicks would work... Ok.. It didn't... Oh well... Stuff happens... I forgive them because sometimes things don't work out.

 

But... It's another thing entirely to go into 2014 with the exact same scenerio... The exact same scenerio in CF that blew up in your face in 2013... and roll the dice once again on a young kid who failed badly in 2013 with no backup option. Why would you do it again?

 

Agreed. The debate isn't so much Presley vs Mastro vs Fuld -- it's that they went into 2014 with basically the exact same CF plan as 2013, which failed spectacularly. Actually, the 2014 plan was notably worse, given what happened to Hicks and Mastro in 2013, not to mention the whole Bartlett thing.

 

If you had that little hope for Presley, and you couldn't land Rajai Davis, Bonifacio and Sizemore obviously were not looking for starting CF jobs. Even Sam Fuld was freely available in the offseason. (Bonifacio wasn't even a free agent, just a relatively inexpensive waiver claim.) And given Hicks' 2013, I doubt any FA looking at a one-year deal (Chris Young?) would have shied away from Minnesota fearing lack of opportunity.

 

I guess it's all good if you were writing off 2014 anyway -- but then why sign all the pitchers? Or if you were determined to throw Hicks to the wolves again -- why pursue Davis then? Just a lot of bad, odd decisions.

[Riverbrian]

While I agree that the Bartlett move was ridiculous and deserves ridicule (though I personally don't really care about 25th men), this sentence points out my problem with criticizing the team over depth issues.

 

Third base has Trevor Plouffe, who was expected to be supplanted by Sano early in the season. Sano got injured and now everything is riding on Plouffe staying healthy.

 

It's pretty unreasonable to expect a team to have more depth than that at any position.

 

While the Twins could have possibly picked up someone else to man CF, was that player going to be enough better than Sam Fuld for it to make a discernible difference?

 

Granted Sano got hurt... It happens. I don't hold the Twins responsible for that. I wouldn't do that.

 

I have no idea what the time table was for Sano's arrival in Minnesota. My assumption was it wasn't going to be opening day. My assumption was probably June for clock reasons if everything went OK in Rochester.

 

If Plouffe was hurt or continued to chase bad pitches and statuesque again at 3B. I wasn't personally comfortable with not having an alternate option in February. I was also not comfortable with rushing Sano in that scenerio.

 

Plouffe has been great and my fears have subsided some? And I guess my 3B issues can be boiled down to... Why would they pass on a Bonofacio? Bonofacio could have backed up 3B and CF and moved to anywhere if Hicks and Plouffe or Sano are cooking.

 

CF is the largest issue in my mind tho. Hicks wasn't a solid enough basket to put nearly every egg in.

[PseudoSABR]

Man, earlier on this thread I thanked Brock for having a civil disagreement w/o commenting on each other....that lasted two pages.

Hey, I'm trying to engage you honestly; if you don't respect that, well, that's unfortunate. There's nothing uncivil about what I said, and I suppose it's your choice to take it to heart or not.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Granted Sano got hurt... It happens. I don't hold the Twins responsible for that. I wouldn't do that.

 

I have no idea what the time table was for Sano's arrival in Minnesota. My assumption was it wasn't going to be opening day. My assumption was probably June for clock reasons if everything went OK in Rochester.

 

If Plouffe was hurt or continued to chase bad pitches and statuesque again at 3B. I wasn't personally comfortable with not having an alternate option in February. I was also not comfortable with rushing Sano in that scenerio.

 

I think Plouffe was a fine stop-gap for Sano. He was pretty bad last season but he wasn't awful. I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect a team to have more depth than a former decent prospect (and acceptable stop-gap) chased by the #6 prospect in baseball.

 

Why would they pass on a Bonofacio? Bonofacio could have backed up 3B and CF and moved to anywhere if Hicks and Plouffe or Sano are cooking.

 

CF is the largest issue in my mind tho. Hicks wasn't a solid enough basket to put nearly every egg in.

 

Well, Presley was their CF guy behind Hicks. Something happened that changed their mind. It's not as if they went into 2014 with no options, they discarded their primary option at the end of Spring Training... Why? I don't know. Something had to have happened there... I'd like to know what it was.

[Otto von Ballpark]

While I agree that the Bartlett move was ridiculous and deserves ridicule (though I personally don't really care about 25th men), this sentence points out my problem with criticizing the team over depth issues.

 

Third base has Trevor Plouffe, who was expected to be supplanted by Sano early in the season. Sano got injured and now everything is riding on Plouffe staying healthy.

 

It's pretty unreasonable to expect a team to have more depth than that at any position.

 

While the Twins could have possibly picked up someone else to man CF, was that player going to be enough better than Sam Fuld for it to make a discernible difference?

 

Agree with your first point. As disappointing as he was at times, Plouffe was still close to a league average 3B, and Sano obviously was Sano. No problem there.

 

But at CF, they didn't even have that. After a full healthy offseason, they basically gave the job back by default to the young guy who skipped AAA and looked completely overwhelmed and well below average if not replacement last season, without even a hint of reasonable competition -- just a bunch of Clete Thomas types or worse. If Buxton was any part of the 2014 MLB CF planning other than "pleasant surprise" that did a great disservice to the team, fans, and Hicks.

 

Again, the debate isn't Presley vs Mastro vs Fuld or even the odd roster machinations around them. It's, what in the heck are they doing in CF? Are they trying to win or not? And what in the heck are the doing with Hicks?

[Riverbrian]

I actually feel kinda silly... Back in February... I thought there was reluctance to address the CF issues because I thought they were reluctant to expose someone like Parmelee.

 

I thought Hicks would start in AAA and perform is way up.

 

I was wrong and I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.

[Brock Beauchamp]

But at CF, they didn't even have that. After a full healthy offseason, they basically gave the job back by default to the young guy who skipped AAA and looked completely overwhelmed and well below average if not replacement last season, without even a hint of reasonable competition -- just a bunch of Clete Thomas types or worse. If Buxton was any part of the 2014 MLB CF planning other than "pleasant surprise" that did a great disservice to the team, fans, and Hicks.

 

Again, the debate isn't Presley vs Mastro vs Fuld or even the odd roster machinations around them. It's, what in the heck are they doing in CF? Are they trying to win or not? And what in the heck are the doing with Hicks?

 

Well, I think they expected Hicks/Presley to bridge to Buxton... Not a fool-proof plan but not one I'll deride like I will the shortstop fiasco, where the upside of the position was "if we're lucky, it won't be terrible".

 

To me, all of this hinges on "what the hell happened with Presley?" Everything surrounding that situation was confusing to outsiders. I can't believe they would just give up on him without an underlying reason.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Because they are sentimental saps? Is that your point? For me, the suggestion that Bartlett take time speaks to their surprise, and their belief that he still could play (which may or may not have been wrong). They also didn't know Fuld would be waived a week later, which is what led to Mastro being waived (though we did get Wilson). For me, the problem is not realizing Bartlett's level of commitment.

 

Fuld was DFA'd on April 12, five days before Bartlett told the Twins of his intent to retire. The Twins already knew he was heading for waivers -- guys don't sign minor league deals in February to get traded for anything of note in April.

 

And the Twins' belief that Bartlett could still play "may not have been wrong"? That has been proven wrong about as much as any judgement about high-level professional athletes can be.

[Riverbrian]

Why? I don't know. Something had to have happened there... I'd like to know what it was.

 

You and me both... Because that's where we stumbled into repeating the 2013 scenario.

 

All in All... It's the first time in a long time... That I'm straining for an answer. I usually... at least can justify moves I disagree with.

 

I can say to myself... "Well they obviously feel this way"... and I move on with my day.

 

I just can't do it here. And your not helping me clear up my confusion.