Dustin Pedroia- Down and Possibly Out- Drew or....Dozier..... to take his place?

[Guest USAFChief]

Why would the Red Sox trade Bogaerts for Dozier, makes no sense? We traded Span and Revere for "young, unproven players", I'd hardly call that tail-chasing. And I would argue that this sort of deal is much more responsible, as the Twins have far more potential depth at 2nd than we had in CF.

The Span and Revere trades may turn out well. As of today, neither trade has added a single win to the Twins.

 

Its also worth remembering that the Twins were lauded for making those trades because of all the "potential depth" in the minors at OF, particularly CF. And yet here we are more than a season later, and there has been no shortage of complaints about the Twins lack of OF options--particularly in CF--over that same season plus.

 

"Potential depth" is a tricky thing. I'd rather the Twins wait for actual depth to emerge and then perhaps trade some of it.

[Guest USAFChief]

How about A+, AA and AAA prospects? It has definitely been painful with the vacuum left at the top of the order, but it certainly appears that Meyer is going to work out. If you can get someone who has performed similarly at AA or AAA and "projects" well, isn't it the same kind of "no pain/no gain" type of move, as well, only less of a risk than the Span trade was?

In 2011, it certainly appeared that Kyle Gibson was going to work out. He had reached AAA, was highly rated, and had us fans excited.

 

Here we are in 2014, and while we're all encouraged, to date he's given the Twins 62 innings of 5+ ERA baseball.

[jokin]

The Span and Revere trades may turn out well. As of today, neither trade has added a single win to the Twins.

 

Its also worth remembering that the Twins were lauded for making those trades because of all the "potential depth" in the minors at OF, particularly CF. And yet here we are more than a season later, and there has been no shortage of complaints about the Twins lack of OF options--particularly in CF--over that same season plus.

 

"Potential depth" is a tricky thing. I'd rather the Twins wait for actual depth to emerge and then perhaps trade some of it.

 

I don't remember anyone saying we had all that much depth in CF at the time, plus we had NO alternatives at the leadoff spot. Want proof? Erik Komatsu was our AAAA-ish depth option in 2012 and we quickly jettisoned him in-season, and then we had to add FREAKIN Clete Thomas just a couple days after trading Span and Revere, he and Mastro, both the fringiest of 4th OFers were the depth options for a AA player, Hicks, with a proven history of slow adaptation to one level of promotion, let alone two.

 

By comparison, the current Twins organizational depth at 2nd is an embarrassment of riches.

[jokin]

In 2011, it certainly appeared that Kyle Gibson was going to work out. He had reached AAA, was highly rated, and had us fans excited.

 

Here we are in 2014, and while we're all encouraged, to date he's given the Twins 62 innings of 5+ ERA baseball.

 

A little apples and oranges. We drafted Gibson and it's very difficult to project injuries. Would there be risk in trading Dozier? Absolutely. Is it worth the risk if you can get an "A" prospect on the verge of major league readiness? Absolutely. Remember this deal:

 

At the time, the three-player transaction didn’t look like a big deal. If it was at all interesting to people, it’s because it was a challenge trades, in which the clubs swapped their veteran starting shortstops, with Chicago’s Ivan DeJesus going to the Phillies and longtime Philadelphia fixture Larry Bowa going to the Cubs.

 

Anyone remember who else was in this deal?

 

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/tht-live/30th-anniversary-the-ryne-sandberg-trade/

[Riverbrian]

Why would the Red Sox trade Bogaerts for Dozier, makes no sense? We traded Span and Revere for "young, unproven players", I'd hardly call that tail-chasing. And I would argue that this sort of deal is much more responsible, as the Twins have far more potential depth at 2nd than we had in CF.

 

I'm pretty sure the Red Sox wouldn't trade Bogaerts... I'm saying that's about the only deal I would consider. Sheesh... I gotta work on my transparency.

 

As for Revere/Span... That's a good point.

 

My guess... Those were off season trades and not an April Trade. I think those are two different animals. I don't believe the Twins have ever uttered the thought "Punt 2014". I think some fans have uttered that thought for them but not the front office. I think they want to win this year and spent millions on pitching to try and do that.

 

I'm also of the opinion... Just a guess... Nothing more... That the Twins had Span on the block for quite some time and would only pull the trigger if a team actually came around to trade the desired package. If the desired package wasn't reached... I believe the Twins would have kept Span. I think the Nats were interested but didn't want to part with Meyer and that was the asking price. They finally agreed when Upton signed with Braves. I think Upton and Span domino'd to the Phillies. I think its possible that the Phillies package was something they discussed for Span and the Phillies may have been hesitant at that as well.

 

I think the Twins felt their need for pitching was more acute at the time than it is now... After signing Hughes and Nolasco to multi year deals and Gibson/Meyer in the majors and closer to the majors.

 

I think the Twins would trade anybody not named Joe if the team came up to a certain price. For Dozier... That price would have to be high and few teams would pay it in April.

 

Come July... Who knows. Come off season when teams are built... who knows.

[jokin]

I'm pretty sure the Red Sox wouldn't trade Bogaerts... I'm saying that's about the only deal I would consider. Sheesh... I gotta work on my transparency.

 

As for Revere/Span... That's a good point.

 

My guess... Those were off season trades and not an April Trade. I think those are two different animals. I don't believe the Twins have ever uttered the thought "Punt 2014". I think some fans have uttered that thought for them but not the front office. I think they want to win this year and spent millions on pitching to try and do that.

 

I'm also of the opinion... Just a guess... Nothing more... That the Twins had Span on the block for quite some time and would only pull the trigger if a team actually came around to trade the desired package. If the desired package wasn't reached... I believe the Twins would have kept Span. I think the Nats were interested but didn't want to part with Meyer and that was the asking price. They finally agreed when Upton signed with Braves. I think Upton and Span domino'd to the Phillies. I think its possible that the Phillies package was something they discussed for Span and the Phillies may have been hesitant at that as well.

 

I think the Twins felt their need for pitching was more acute at the time than it is now... After signing Hughes and Nolasco to multi year deals and Gibson/Meyer in the majors and closer to the majors.

 

I think the Twins would trade anybody not named Joe if the team came up to a certain price. For Dozier... That price would have to be high and few teams would pay it in April.

 

Come July... Who knows. Come off season when teams are built... who knows.

 

All good points. My only quibble is that while the Twins would never admit that 2014 was a punt, their actions (or lack thereof) on upgrading the offense and depth defense speak volumes. (Sizemore, Abreu, Bonifacio should have been easy decisions.....Drew and Morales tougher ones, to be sure, but very doable for a team making a full commitment to putting a winning team on the field, THIS YEAR). Since they plainly haven't gone all-in in that direction, IMO, trades that bolster the team for the bigger picture beyond this year have to be "game-planned" year-round- even in April. Everyone around these parts is pretty much in agreement that SS is THE huge question mark for this team going forward- and the problem is chronic, if not acute. Is there a potential Ryne Sandberg/SS Edition hanging out the Red Sox organization? I don't know. If the D-Backs suddenly sour on Aaron Hill, or he gets hurt again, and come calling with a Dozier for Didi swap in mind, do you turn it down just because it's April?

[jokin]

Dozier is pushing his way to be a top 10 2B. I don't see Boston giving up what it would take to pry him away, just to be a 2-3 months stop gap.

 

If Dozier were a stop gap, then definitely they won't be giving the Twins a prize prospect. But what if they view Dozier as the potential Reverse-Sandberg in Fenway?..... going from 2nd to 3rd instead of 3rd to 2nd, giving them a great glove that they don't have right now at the position, plus a potential OPS+ 130 guy. Red Sox Nation has soured a bit on Middlebrooks' glove , and now his health issues, adding another guy with Pedroia-like grit could play well in Beantown.

[Riverbrian]

All good points. My only quibble is that while the Twins would never admit that 2014 was a punt, their actions (or lack thereof) on upgrading the offense and depth defense speak volumes. (Sizemore, Abreu, Bonifacio should have been easy decisions.....Drew and Morales tougher ones, to be sure, but very doable for a team making a full commitment to putting a winning team on the field, THIS YEAR). Since they plainly haven't gone all-in in that direction, IMO, trades that bolster the team for the bigger picture beyond this year have to be "game-planned" year-round- even in April. Everyone around these parts is pretty much in agreement that SS is THE huge question mark for this team going forward- and the problem is chronic, if not acute. Is there a potential Ryne Sandberg/SS Edition hanging out the Red Sox organization? I don't know. If the D-Backs suddenly sour on Aaron Hill, or he gets hurt again, and come calling with a Dozier for Didi swap in mind, do you turn it down just because it's April?

 

I really can't argue any of this... I can only speculate. I believe you are right... Actions speak volumes.

 

I believe the Twins feel the offense was addressed. Just not to my satisfaction or yours.

 

My guesses based on the Twins actions:

 

I think they think Hammer was gonna get paid in the final year of his contract and capable of rebounding to his typical level and they were not gonna flush the money down the toilet on an off year.

 

I think they believe Kubel was a solid addition at a bargain... Just one year removed from a 30 HR season.

 

I think they thought Plouffe would either get the job done or Sano would be replace him.

 

I think they wanted to get Mauer out from behind the plate after his concussion and 1B was the spot.

 

I think they like Pinto enough to trade Doumit but don't want to put all eggs in his young basket just yet and wanted a vet catcher to work with the money spent on a starting rotation until Pinto says... OK the job is mine now with his bat and glove. A vet catcher with better game management than Doumit and Suzuki was the best option after A.J turned them down.

 

I think they loved Brian Dozier defensively at 2B and were pretty excited about his bat and thought it would only get better.

 

I think they don't want to part with a draft pick for Drew plus the money he wants and I think every team feels the same way because he still out there and the Mets, Pirates, Giants, Yankees, Angels, Tigers and Twins have middle infield question marks. Drew and Morales will sign with a club when SS and 1B become problematic for them without a doubt or after that draft pick is no longer an issue.

 

I also think that MI is weak across the board and someone liked Bartlett as a sleeper. I also think trading for a decent SS is so expensive that it would mortgage the future.

 

I admit... I have no idea what the immediate thinking is about CF. I am completely stumped. And you and I agree about Bonofacio. I don't understand that either. There were affordable CF options out there.

 

I think the Twins think the pieces are in place if everybody would just do what they are supposed to do.

 

I also think the Twins would trade Dozier if someone called and met a certain price. I don't think anyone is gonna meet that price in April because teams are built and now they are watching them to see how they do. In the off season they are building... In July it's step on the gas or triage. Major trades in April and May are rare.

 

I don't think... The Red Sox will panic with Pedroia and Middlebrooks in April... Unless they know its a long term injury and Brock Holt is stinking up the place. By July... They will know where they are bleeding and pick up bandages or rent some hand grenades to make other teams bleed.

 

If Dozier is hitting .250 plus and heading for 20 plus home runs... With his defense at 2B and his salary. You gotta get something real nice in return.

 

The real nice stuff... Teams don't want to part with the nice stuff at any cost.

[jokin]

 

 

 

 

. I also think trading for a decent SS is so expensive that it would mortgage the future.

 

 

 

 

I also think the Twins would trade Dozier if someone called and met a certain price. I don't think anyone is gonna meet that price in April because teams are built and now they are watching them to see how they do. In the off season they are building... In July it's step on the gas or triage. Major trades in April and May are rare.

 

 

 

If Dozier is hitting .250 plus and heading for 20 plus home runs... With his defense at 2B and his salary. You gotta get something real nice in return.

 

The real nice stuff... Teams don't want to part with the nice stuff at any cost.

 

Generally true, but there are teams with virtually unlimited payroll and one of the best farm systems, say, like the Red Sox, who have a little more leeway in setting the parameters for what "at any cost" means to them. If Holt stumbles, Middlebrooks and Pedroia remain health question marks along with other ongoing health issues from other personnel, odds are that the Bosox will be much more willing to throw caution, in the form of big bucks for Drew or some of the "nice stuff", to the wind.

[Mike Sixel]

A: I would not build a team this way, but the Twins are....hence my belief trading him would make sense for THIS GM.

 

B: I don't think Boston is trading for him.

 

C: I would not deal him w/o getting 2 very good prospects/MLB players in return, minimum.

 

D: In an ideal world, I'd keep him, and sign more expensive FAs.....