Article: Why is Joe Mauer Such a Lightning Rod?

[Dman]

Agree, Span had a multitude of influences from his family, school, previous baseball teams, Twins management, ect... as well as this leadership and mentoring from Torii that all combined to make him the player he is. Talent is a component but talented players fail on teams all the time but will sometimes succeed for other teams, partially based coaching and mentoring so I am willing to say that all that stuff is irrelevent.

 

Can someone point me to a source where Joe Mauer took a similar interest in a young catcher (Butera, Ramos, Morales, Pinto) or was he just "present"?

 

 

Yeah I've never heard of Joe really "mentoring" someone not that it hasn't happened but given who he is I doubt it would be like Hunter or Pucket. I think you are right about him in that regard I just don't think those are things are "necessary" for him to do.

 

Coaching is not irrelevant but a player has to have a certain skill set before any of that matters and its influence only goes so far.

 

Mentoring\leadership to me is more about sharing experience and typically about helping build confidence in someone who maybe hasn't "been there" before. Important but minimal in relation to skill in my opinion.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Somewhat off topic (which might be good, since I don't particularly care for the topic anymore ):

 

Is it time to revisit the idea of "Joe Mauer, leadoff hitter"?

 

- We don't currently have a prototypical leadoff hitter (or if we do in Hicks, we are still protecting him in the bottom of the order).

 

- Mauer ain't catching anymore, so he doesn't have to rush to get his catching gear off before the bottom of the first

 

- Also since he's not catching, he's playing everyday and thus could provide more stability at the top for an offense that could use some

 

- He's obviously still our best OBP guy

 

Assuming full health, something like would be cool:

Mauer

Dozier

Kubel

Cola/Willingham

Arcia

Plouffe

Hicks

Pinto

SS du jour

 

I guess back to the thread topic, haters still gonna hate ("we didn't pay him $23 mil to leadoff"), but I think it could be a better role for him, framing his skills and accomplishments better, and in a way, it could also be seen as Joe being a leader or "taking one for the team" (volunteering to be the table setter, rather than insisting on the glory of the RBI guy).

[gunnarthor]

I didn't see the game yesterday. In that final at bat, did he take one strike?

 

Of course he did.

[gunnarthor]

I cannot defend the hit-able pitches argument as I have seen him take strike one right down the middle maybe thousands of time now. It is his approach and yes even I have been exasperated by it. And yet he continues to be successful at what he does and in some cases one of the best in baseball.

 

Taking pitches is an important part of baseball as well. All teams try and get their players to do it. Eventually it forces the pitcher to tire and throw hit-able strikes as the pitch count rises. You can't swing at strike one all the time, but yes Mauer could every once in a while. I can't argue that point. At the same time until he becomes less successful it seems hard to complain about it.

 

I agree but I think that explains the *why* of why fans see him as a lightening rod.

[cmathewson]

I'm kind of or actually old and can remember the days of Killer, Tony O and later Kirby. There are some players like these guys that in a tight game you'd sit up in your seat a little because you knew these guys could change the game in that at bat. I've never felt that with Joe up. That doesn't mean anything negative about his ability other than imo he isn't the "game changer" that others are and have been.

Does anyone think if Kirby batted yesterday with the winning runs in scoring position he'd have worked a walk?

 

No, Kirby would have taken a hack and made an out two thirds of the time. I watched that at bat and I didn't see any very hittable pitches. He was being pitched around with two outs in the bottom of the ninth. An out ends the game. I don't blame him for taking two pitchers pitches and four balls. It's pretty easy to play Monday morning quarterback.

[TheLeviathan]

Similarly, there is a difference between working the pitcher for a walk and being pitched around. As I watched that at-bat I mostly saw the latter; maybe that's my own bias kicking in.

 

But it doesn't surprise me that Joe did better when there was a healthy Morneau hitting behind him. One wonders what impact a healthy Sano might have in the future.

 

I think this is a perception bias. There was a time when Mauer was being pitched around, but I'm not sure that's the case anymore. The man is typically in the top 10 in pitches per plate appearance, but his walk total has rarely been at an abnormally high rate/elite. If he was being pitched around, with his eye, we'd see more walks.

 

Guys that get pitched around are Trout, Votto, etc. In fact, I'd argue Mauer is the least "pitched around" hitter I've seen in a long time. Pitchers of all ilk go up to him early in counts and groove strikes simply by virtue of his reputation to take pitches.

 

Mauer has every right to be selective, but people are too frequently equating that with being pitched around. I'd argue he as close to the opposite of that as any great hitter in the league.

[Dman]

If Mauer is deferring to Plouffe after a weeks worth of production, I think that a big problem. That why I think Joe is more a complementary player than the player that is going to carry the team. And I think that is by choice not by talent. Sometimes a player need to outside his comfort zone to help the team win, and I don't see Mauer as that type of player.

 

The other thing you have to consider here is that once the bases were loaded the pitcher had to throw strikes and likely good ones. Plouffe was going to see better pitches than Mauer. The other team likely wanted Mauer to chase and they had a base open. Maybe they preferred to pitch to Plouffe I don't know. At any rate I don't think it was horrible to take the walk in that situation.

[Craig Arko]

I think this is a perception bias. There was a time when Mauer was being pitched around, but I'm not sure that's the case anymore. The man is typically in the top 10 in pitches per plate appearance, but his walk total has rarely been at an abnormally high rate/elite. If he was being pitched around, with his eye, we'd see more walks.

 

Guys that get pitched around are Trout, Votto, etc. In fact, I'd argue Mauer is the least "pitched around" hitter I've seen in a long time. Pitchers of all ilk go up to him early in counts and groove strikes simply by virtue of his reputation to take pitches.

 

Mauer has every right to be selective, but people are too frequently equating that with being pitched around. I'd argue he as close to the opposite of that as any great hitter in the league.

 

Confirming again why eyewitness testimony is so unreliable; we all see what we expect to, don't we? It does provide Penn and Teller with a nice living, though.

[cmathewson]

Was Rod Carew a great hitter?

 

I really don't understand why we don't accept that not making an out is the key to offense.

 

Yeah, some hitters don't make outs AND hit homers. They're rare.

 

This. See also, Boggs, Wade and Gwynn, Tony. No one argues that they were elite. The Mauer hate reminds me of stories of the Williams hate in Boston. After he hit .400, they couldn't accept .350.

[TheLeviathan]

Confirming again why eyewitness testimony is so unreliable; we all see what we expect to, don't we? It does provide Penn and Teller with a nice living, though.

 

True but I think the stats show your view on how often he is pitched around to have some flaws.

[Craig Arko]

True but I think the stats show your view on how often he is pitched around to have some flaws.

 

It's certainly possible. Although,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics

 

is still needing to be read on a regular basis.

[Dman]

I am starting to understand the other side better but I can only think of two players who were the type of player that most would like Joe to be and that is Miguel Cabrera and Albert Pujols. Unfortunately Joe doesn't posses the HR power they have and is unlikely to impact games in the way they could. His approach is also different as he is typically less aggressive at the plate.

 

I can see how people find his approach frustrating and I guess I do at times as well. He is an enigma. In the end though I still admire his approach and the player that he is. I guess I am more content with letting him do what he does best. Others would like him to be something I don't see him ever becoming and I guess I don't find that fair. Especially since he is one of the best in baseball. I guess the lightning rod remains as the sides will just agree to disagree.

[TheLeviathan]

It's certainly possible. Although,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics

 

is still needing to be read on a regular basis.

 

That really isn't a response.

 

If Mauer isn't getting pitches to hit, is seeing some of the most pitches in all of baseball, and has a good eye.....why is he not walking?

 

Votto walked twice as often for example. The flaw is in the meme that Mauer doesn't get pitches hit.

[Dman]

That really isn't a response.

 

If Mauer isn't getting pitches to hit, is seeing some of the most pitches in all of baseball, and has a good eye.....why is he not walking?

 

 

Votto walked twice as often for example. The flaw is in the meme that Mauer doesn't get pitches hit.

 

I think stats and eye test will bare this out. Mauer has no power so unless someone is in scoring position there is no need to pitch around him. If I was pitching to Mauer I would throw Strike one right down the middle. Low and away for strike two and then play with him a little throwing junk at him hoping for a swing and miss or a weak ground ball. You would think pitchers would be more successful against him since he essentially gives them 2 strikes almost every at bat.

[DJL44]

When he gets a belt-high fastball for the first pitch, take a hack at it.

 

He does. Joe Mauer has the highest average in baseball when he makes contact with the first pitch. He's just really picky because he knows he has to be right more than 40% of the time for it to pay off.

 

The frustration for the Mauer supporters (and I'm one of them) is the Mauer critics keep suggesting that Mauer do things that would ultimately make him less productive and make the Twins lose more ballgames. They want him to hack more and walk less. They wanted him to move off catcher 5 years ago. They want him to throw a fit when something bad happens instead of acting like a professional. These are all terrible ideas.

[DJL44]

Those who want him to be the entertainer aren't getting their money's worth.

 

Watching baseball for the post-game interviews is like watching porn for the plot and dialogue.

[DJL44]

Votto walked twice as often for example.

 

Yes, there is one guy who has a higher OBP than Mauer - you found him.

[SDFan]

Watching baseball for the post-game interviews is like watching porn for the plot and dialogue.

 

Is there a hall of fame for posts? I nominate this one.

[kblack1011]

This. See also, Boggs, Wade and Gwynn, Tony. No one argues that they were elite. The Mauer hate reminds me of stories of the Williams hate in Boston. After he hit .400, they couldn't accept .350.

 

All these players have over 3,000 hits. Mauer has 1,400 so it's unlikely he will get close to 3,000. I think John Olerud is a more comparable.

[TheLeviathan]

Yes, there is one guy who has a higher OBP than Mauer - you found him.

 

You utterly and completely missed the point. Votto is pitched around. Mauer is not.

 

in fact, I can't remember anyone pitched more directly at than Mauer. He is rarely pitched around. His OBP is due to his eye/patience, NOT due to pitcher fear of throwing strikes. The notion that he is pitched around frequently is utterly preposterous.

[Otto von Ballpark]

You utterly and completely missed the point. Votto is pitched around. Mauer is not.

 

in fact, I can't remember anyone pitched more directly at than Mauer. He is rarely pitched around. His OBP is due to his eye/patience, NOT due to pitcher fear of throwing strikes. The notion that he is pitched around frequently is utterly preposterous.

 

Mauer's Intentional Bases on Balls

2005 AL 12 (4th)

2006 AL 21 (3rd)

2009 AL 14 (2nd)

2010 AL 14 (2nd)

2012 AL 10 (8th)

2014 AL 2 (2nd)

Active 105 (10th)

Career 105 (113th)

[TheLeviathan]

Mauer's Intentional Bases on Balls

2005 AL 12 (4th)

2006 AL 21 (3rd)

2009 AL 14 (2nd)

2010 AL 14 (2nd)

2012 AL 10 (8th)

2014 AL 2 (2nd)

Active 105 (10th)

Career 105 (113th)

 

intentional walks are hardly equivalent to pitching around. Mauer tends to earn his walks with patience rather than pitchers intentionally avoiding him.

[tobi0040]

All these players have over 3,000 hits. Mauer has 1,400 so it's unlikely he will get close to 3,000. I think John Olerud is a more comparable.

 

I think it is unrealistic to expect a catcher to end up with 3,000 hits. Mauer actually has a higher OPS (.873) than Olerud (.863), Boggs (.858), or Gwynn (.847). Given that he had that OPS through 8 years at a position that generates little offense, it is safe to conclude Mauer has added more value than all three.

 

Which comes back to, the criticism of Mauer is a little silly and he is a great player.

[tobi0040]

intentional walks are hardly equivalent to pitching around. Mauer tends to earn his walks with patience rather than pitchers intentionally avoiding him.

 

Pitching around and intentially walking are very similar things. Especially to a guy with a very good eye at the plate. One is just more blatent.

[Otto von Ballpark]

intentional walks are hardly equivalent to pitching around. Mauer tends to earn his walks with patience rather than pitchers intentionally avoiding him.

 

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[TheLeviathan]

Pitching around and intentially walking are very similar things. Especially to a guy with a very good eye at the plate. One is just more blatent.

 

Similar, sure. They are different, though. Now you can disagree with Verlander (and should given the matchup numbers) but clearly there is a perception of Mauer as a hitter not to pitch around but to challenge.

[Dman]

Mauer's Intentional Bases on Balls

2005 AL 12 (4th)

2006 AL 21 (3rd)

2009 AL 14 (2nd)

2010 AL 14 (2nd)

2012 AL 10 (8th)

2014 AL 2 (2nd)

Active 105 (10th)

Career 105 (113th)

 

 

Dang I am wrong yet again. I hate statistics. I wonder who was first those years?

[Otto von Ballpark]

I think it is unrealistic to expect a catcher to end up with 3,000 hits. Mauer actually has a higher OPS (.873) than Olerud (.863), Boggs (.858), or Gwynn (.847). Given that he had that OPS through 8 years at a position that generates little offense, it is safe to conclude Mauer has added more value than all three.

 

Which comes back to, the criticism of Mauer is a little silly and he is a great player.

 

I agree that Mauer is great, but it's not fair to compare Mauer's OPS through age 30 with Boggs/Gwynn through age 41 (or Olerud through 36). There should be era/ballpark adjustments too. I don't think your conclusion is at all clear given that problematic data.

[Willihammer]

Since 2010, Mauer is not even in the top 100 batters with the fewest strikes seen. But he has the 3rd lowest swings percent. He looks at a lot of hittable pitches, I don't think there's any question about that.

 

edit: go to fangraphs, sort Z-swing%. Mauer is 6th from the bottom among qualified batters since 2010.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Dang I am wrong yet again. I hate statistics. I wonder who was first those years?

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/IBB_leagues.shtml