Article: Why is Joe Mauer Such a Lightning Rod?

[Mike Sixel]

I'm not sure it is "silly" or "dumb" or whatever to criticize the ridulous money athletes get. It just comes from a different place than you all who are saying that sit. Because, it might just be silly for an entertainer to get paid this much, and at some point, our society might change that....and look back on this period as oddly as some look back on the past today.

[Craig Arko]

I find it fascinating (and I could be wrong) by how emotional people are in this thread, either way.....why do people care what other people think about Joe Mauer?

 

Ultimately that's what Nick's question asks. I suppose people are trying to answer it by example.

[Dman]

To be fair, you have to understand that his leadership gets called into question because his production doesn't answer the question itself.

 

If you're not driving in people, getting the big hits, coming through in big spots, than other elements of your game get more scrutiny. It's not fair, but it happens all the time in sports. Guys who are highly productive on winning teams just get the assumption of leadership.

 

I think people are too dismissive of how Mauer's personality plays into this. The guy has been a great hitter, but his mannerisms and his near pathological unwillingness to take the mantle of "the guy" are certainly reasons to be annoyed with him at times.

 

You are right. I get a bit to emotional when passion and leadership get equated with skill. Those arguments bother me because there is nothing factual there. I try to stay objective but I lose it when it comes to those two things. Yours is the more balanced view. I will try and let it go.

[Squirrel]

With talent comes responsibility.

 

The responsibility it comes with is doing his job, on the field, which is being a great baseball player, which I think he is. But his talent isn't being a 'people person' in the manner of Puckett or Hunter. Just because you are one of the most talented ball players out there does not mean you have to have the skills to be the vocal leader. It'd be nice, but I don't think it's a requirement. If in his contract there is language that spells out that these are also his responsibilities, then yes, there is a problem. But assigning him arbitrary responsibilities outside of being a player on the field, then judging him by that, well, I guess I don't think that's right. My opinion.

[BHtwins]

There is so much crazy and dumb in this thread its impossible to respond.

 

One thing I will say. If you have an elite hitter who catches at a gold glove level....its high octane baseball stupidity to force him into another position until you have too. Whichever, person suggested the all the good hitting catchers are moved to get them more at bats doesnt get it. While that has happened....in every case it was mostly because they sucked at catching. Joe Mauer does not suck at catching. Moving him off his natural position early would have been criminally dumb

[Mike Sixel]

I disagree, chitown.....if you are the FACE of the franchise, and the marketing campaign is built around you, and you are the best player, and, and, and all the things that come with being the highest paid, he does have an obligation to do interviews, and to be accessible. It is part of the job. His job is MORE than hitting/fielding on the field. It just is. He is an entertainer, not just a baseball player.

[Craig Arko]

The responsibility it comes with is doing his job, on the field, which is being a great baseball player, which I think he is. But his talent isn't being a 'people person' in the manner of Puckett or Hunter. Just because you are one of the most talented ball players out there does not mean you have to have the skills to be the vocal leader. It'd be nice, but I don't think it's a requirement. If in his contract there is language that spells out that these are also his responsibilities, then yes, there is a problem. But assigning him arbitrary responsibilities outside of being a player on the field, then judging him by that, well, I guess I don't think that's right. My opinion.

 

So Joe isn't actually Spider-Man, then? Millions of disappointed youngsters weep.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Only, no. MOST IMPORTANT, yes.

 

I wish people didn't suck so hard at numbers. Math is not your enemy, folks. Embrace it.

dead on, but if there's no lead off, or cleanup hitter around you to do their job around you, what good is it? You can't "carry a team on your back" ala Kirby Puckett without hitting home runs. That's the expectation of the best player on a team. Now I disagree with it, but that's why...

[kblack1011]

Their OPS+ are similar but Joe has a considerable advantage in OBP, the more valuable of the OBP/SLG duo.

 

Oliva was more like Puckett than Mauer.

 

I think the big disagreement is in your statement that the OBP is the more valuable stat. What the article wanted was more slugging from Mauer, which I agree with. Yesterday, down 3 and 2 runners on base, I don't want Mauer working the pitcher for a walk and leaving it up to Plouffe.

[Craig Arko]

I think the big disagreement is in your statement that the OBP is the more valuable stat. What the article wanted was more slugging from Mauer, which I agree with. Yesterday, down 3 and 2 runners on base, I don't want Mauer working the pitcher for a walk and leaving it up to Plouffe.

 

Similarly, there is a difference between working the pitcher for a walk and being pitched around. As I watched that at-bat I mostly saw the latter; maybe that's my own bias kicking in.

 

But it doesn't surprise me that Joe did better when there was a healthy Morneau hitting behind him. One wonders what impact a healthy Sano might have in the future.

[Squirrel]

I disagree, chitown.....if you are the FACE of the franchise, and the marketing campaign is built around you, and you are the best player, and, and, and all the things that come with being the highest paid, he does have an obligation to do interviews, and to be accessible. It is part of the job. His job is MORE than hitting/fielding on the field. It just is. He is an entertainer, not just a baseball player.

 

And this is what I pointed out much earlier in the thread. The entertainer vs athlete conundrum. Those who want him to be the entertainer aren't getting their money's worth. Those who think that being just the athlete is fine, think he's living up to the money. There will never be agreement in this other than to agree to disagree. While it'd be nice to hear Joe step up to the mic and be the 'vocal leader' of the team, I don't expect it. To me it's not what he's paid to do.

[Mike Sixel]

I agree, that is a fundamental point the "two sides" will not agree on......

 

Nick's question (and my followup) still remain, why do people care what other people think? Why do you (anyone answering here) care what other people think about Joe Mauer?

 

I actually don't care what you all think, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here. I'm just participating in a conversation, but it seems that some of you care.*

 

*I do have a lot of opinions about Mauer, but it doesn't bother me at all that others disagree, but clearly, the use of "dumb", "silly" and other word indicate that people do care about what others think.

[tobi0040]

The responsibility it comes with is doing his job, on the field, which is being a great baseball player, which I think he is. But his talent isn't being a 'people person' in the manner of Puckett or Hunter. Just because you are one of the most talented ball players out there does not mean you have to have the skills to be the vocal leader. It'd be nice, but I don't think it's a requirement. If in his contract there is language that spells out that these are also his responsibilities, then yes, there is a problem. But assigning him arbitrary responsibilities outside of being a player on the field, then judging him by that, well, I guess I don't think that's right. My opinion.

 

I completely agree. Mauer's best asset is his eye at the plate, which leads to a ton of walks, respect from the ump's, and better pitches to hit. It is not his fault that he is by far the best player on the team. If he would feel pressured to change his game, I am not sure we would be better for it. Could Joe Mauer hit 35-40 HR a year if that was his sole focus? I think we would be kidding ourselves if we thought he is not capable of doing that. The question is, what would that do to his average, OBP, walks, k rates, etc.

[jgfellows]

I'm not sure it is "silly" or "dumb" or whatever to criticize the ridulous money athletes get. It just comes from a different place than you all who are saying that sit. Because, it might just be silly for an entertainer to get paid this much, and at some point, our society might change that....and look back on this period as oddly as some look back on the past today.

 

To be clear, if someone thinks that players are overpaid in general, that is an opinion that has merit. I think that anyone who thinks now that Mauer is making 23MM a year that he should now hit more Homeruns, that is silly. Joe's salary was driven by the market and he for the most part has kept his numbers up.

[JB_Iowa]

I went and looked at the favorite Twins fan thread again and found only 2 or 3 posts out of 50 or so that mentioned Mauer as a favorite.

 

Brock's comment in that thread strikes me:

 

It's too easy to cheer for Joe. He's inhumanly good at baseball which takes a bit of the fun out of cheering for him.

In some ways, Joe Mauer has become irrelevant to me. I basically believe that he will produce at a certain level and that there won't be many surprises.

 

With other players, I hope and dream and cheer -- and I can relate to their struggles. I simply can't relate to Joe Mauer.

 

He actually may become a bit more interesting if he has some struggles at the plate or adjusting to 1B even while healthy and he may become more interesting as we see him adjusting through the aging process.

 

It's ironic, really, that a player that provides so little drama ON the field has become a lightning rod -- not for anything he does but simply by being.

[Dman]

I think the big disagreement is in your statement that the OBP is the more valuable stat. What the article wanted was more slugging from Mauer, which I agree with. Yesterday, down 3 and 2 runners on base, I don't want Mauer working the pitcher for a walk and leaving it up to Plouffe.

 

Certainly Mauer could be more aggressive at the plate if he chose to. You make a valid point there. From my perspective the most important thing for a batter is to not make an out. A walk, a single, a double, a HR doesn't matter the objective is to not make an out. If the pitcher is going to pitch to the corners and gives you very tough pitches to be successful you try and wait for a hitters count and get a good pitch. If that doesn't happen you take a walk.

 

Given that Mauer's BA is currently worse than Plouffe and that Plouffe is a better power hitter than Mauer to me the walk makes sense in that context. Let the player with the better BA and better power get the chance to not make another out. Most coaches and athletes say that you take what the other team gives you and trust your teammates to come through. I think he did that.

[Boom Boom]

I don't care about the money. If it starts hindering the team from bringing in better talent, or if it has already, that's the fault of the owners.

 

I just want to see Mauer be more aggressive at the plate. When he gets a belt-high fastball for the first pitch, take a hack at it. When there's two runners on and the team is down by three in extra innings, swing. Don't leave it up to the next guy, because the next guy (no matter which guy it is) is a worse hitter than Mauer. I don't think that's asking too much.

[jharaldson]

This leadership thing seems so bogus to me. First can you name me a player that does what you describe.

 

Torii Hunter was a mentor to Denard Span.

 

http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070313&content_id=1841143&vkey=spt2007news&c_id=min&fext=.jsp

 

"I went up there for a whole week and that week was just being around him and his family," Span said. "I paid attention to everything -- how he interacted with his kids, his wife and all the people when he would go out. I just learned a lot watching him being a professional, a true big leaguer."

 

Mentoring Span has become a sort of mission for Hunter, who had a similar relationship with another famous Twins center fielder, Kirby Puckett. Hunter had always told Puckett that he would carry on the tradition that Puck set by helping another young guy coming up in system.

 

The two became close right away and have spent the past few springs talking about everything from baseball to family to life in general. But there was something different about Span when he arrived at Hunter's home in Prospect, and it was something that Hunter noticed immediately.

 

"In the outfield, we've been talking and working a lot," Hunter said.

[Dman]

I completely agree. Mauer's best asset is his eye at the plate, which leads to a ton of walks, respect from the ump's, and better pitches to hit. It is not his fault that he is by far the best player on the team. If he would feel pressured to change his game, I am not sure we would be better for it. Could Joe Mauer hit 35-40 HR a year if that was his sole focus? I think we would be kidding ourselves if we thought he is not capable of doing that. The question is, what would that do to his average, OBP, walks, k rates, etc.

 

 

Personally I think Joe has tried at times to hit more home runs as I saw his average drop and noticed him hitting balls to the warning track more often at certain points in past years. I don't know what it is but in my opinion I don't think his swing works for the HR. He just is who is and power is not in the cards unless he plays in a stadium more conducive to HR's. That is just my opinion no facts to back it up but he doesn't hit a lot of HR's and I don't see him changing his approach.

[Dman]

Torii Hunter was a mentor to Denard Span.

 

http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070313&content_id=1841143&vkey=spt2007news&c_id=min&fext=.jsp

 

Touche'. Lot's of players have several mentor's and coaches throughout there career's. These people coach and mentor hundreds and some thousands of players in their lifetime and only a tiny fraction become successful why? Same person, same approach, same drills, Skill level was and is different. As you look it will always come down to that. Otherwise with a little Torri mentoring we all could become Denard Span etc.

[gunnarthor]

From my perspective the most important thing for a batter is to not make an out.

 

And this is probably a pretty clear line that divides the camps. No one wants Mauer to make outs so that's a strawman argument. No one is asking that he chase pitches he can't hit. But people are complaining that he's taking hittable pitches in situations where the team desperately needs a big hit. And that can be exasperating to watch. Yesterday was just another example of it. That doesn't mean that people don't recognize Mauer's talent it is just they find something about him incredibly off-putting.

[kblack1011]

Certainly Mauer could be more aggressive at the plate if he chose to. You make a valid point there. From my perspective the most important thing for a batter is to not make an out. A walk, a single, a double, a HR doesn't matter the objective is to not make an out. If the pitcher is going to pitch to the corners and gives you very tough pitches to be successful you try and wait for a hitters count and get a good pitch. If that doesn't happen you take a walk.

 

Given that Mauer's BA is currently worse than Plouffe and that Plouffe is a better power hitter than Mauer to me the walk makes sense in that context. Let the player with the better BA and better power get the chance to not make another out. Most coaches and athletes say that you take what the other team gives you and trust your teammates to come through. I think he did that.

 

If Mauer is deferring to Plouffe after a weeks worth of production, I think that a big problem. That why I think Joe is more a complementary player than the player that is going to carry the team. And I think that is by choice not by talent. Sometimes a player need to outside his comfort zone to help the team win, and I don't see Mauer as that type of player.

[Winston Smith]

I'm kind of or actually old and can remember the days of Killer, Tony O and later Kirby. There are some players like these guys that in a tight game you'd sit up in your seat a little because you knew these guys could change the game in that at bat. I've never felt that with Joe up. That doesn't mean anything negative about his ability other than imo he isn't the "game changer" that others are and have been.

Does anyone think if Kirby batted yesterday with the winning runs in scoring position he'd have worked a walk?

[Shane Wahl]

Where does this belief that to be a leader you have to be some loud mouth idiot come from? Honestly it's so cliche and myopic.

 

Mauer appears to be a leader to me, he leads by example with his preparation, consistency and ability to do what's necessary to help his team. He's not a demonstrative goofball, so this means he's not a leader? I just don't get it.

 

In fact the Colabello article on this very site makes it clear how Mauer leads by example.

[Shane Wahl]

I wonder how perceptions would change had Joe played most of his career in Fenway? I'd ask this because the hitter he most reminds me of is Wade Boggs. Definitely his personality does not.

 

Career leader in doubles in such a scenario!

[Shane Wahl]

I didn't see the game yesterday. In that final at bat, did he take one strike?

[jharaldson]

Touche'. Lot's of players have several mentor's and coaches throughout there career's. These people coach and mentor hundreds and some thousands of players in their lifetime and only a tiny fraction become successful why? Same person, same approach, same drills, Skill level was and is different. As you look it will always come down to that. Otherwise with a little Torri mentoring we all could become Denard Span etc.

 

Agree, Span had a multitude of influences from his family, school, previous baseball teams, Twins management, ect... as well as this leadership and mentoring from Torii that all combined to make him the player he is. Talent is a component but talented players fail on teams all the time but will sometimes succeed for other teams, partially based coaching and mentoring so I am willing to say that all that stuff is irrelevent.

 

Can someone point me to a source where Joe Mauer took a similar interest in a young catcher (Butera, Ramos, Morales, Pinto) or was he just "present"?

[D. Hocking]

Joe might not be overly vocal or mentor Torii Hunter style, but I don't think he is a nonpresence either. I heard one of the players interviewed (I think during Twinsfest) and he was asked if they thought without catching if Joe would be around more, and he replied that Joe has always been approachable and felt like he could ask him advice anytime.

 

There was also an interview a couple of years ago where someone was watching behind the scenes and observed Joe (he did it discretely away from most of the the media) pull a visiting Buxton aside and help him out and give him some encouragement.

[Dman]

And this is probably a pretty clear line that divides the camps. No one wants Mauer to make outs so that's a strawman argument. No one is asking that he chase pitches he can't hit. But people are complaining that he's taking hittable pitches in situations where the team desperately needs a big hit. And that can be exasperating to watch. Yesterday was just another example of it. That doesn't mean that people don't recognize Mauer's talent it is just they find something about him incredibly off-putting.

 

I cannot defend the hit-able pitches argument as I have seen him take strike one right down the middle maybe thousands of time now. It is his approach and yes even I have been exasperated by it. And yet he continues to be successful at what he does and in some cases one of the best in baseball.

 

Taking pitches is an important part of baseball as well. All teams try and get their players to do it. Eventually it forces the pitcher to tire and throw hit-able strikes as the pitch count rises. You can't swing at strike one all the time, but yes Mauer could every once in a while. I can't argue that point. At the same time until he becomes less successful it seems hard to complain about it.

[tobi0040]

If Mauer is deferring to Plouffe after a weeks worth of production, I think that a big problem. That why I think Joe is more a complementary player than the player that is going to carry the team. And I think that is by choice not by talent. Sometimes a player need to outside his comfort zone to help the team win, and I don't see Mauer as that type of player.

 

Mauer has hit a HR in 2% of his at bats. Plouffe has a HR in 4.5% and a 2B in 3.4%, or 7.9% if you add the two. So when Mauer takes a BB ahead of Plouffe, a plouffe HR or 2B scores the people on base when Mauer was up, and Mauer. Seems like the walk over pressing makes more sense.

 

You can't pay a guy like Mauer because of who he is, then ask him to change because of his pay.