Article: Why is Joe Mauer Such a Lightning Rod?

[gunnarthor]

Right. So there are maybe three guys who get on base at Mauer's rate and also hit a lot of homers. So your criticism is that he's not one of the three best players in all of baseball. I think you need to reset your standards.

 

That wasn't what I said either. And also, he isn't one of the 20 best players in baseball.

 

He does a lot of things well including the most important thing - not making outs - but he also does a lot of things that frustrate people. Including, and most especially, not *seemingly* caring about driving in runs when that is more important than having another base runner. That, I believe, is the main reason people get upset with him.

[Jerr]

I don't think anyone (at least not me) doesn't accept that he's been the best player from 2009-today. (Santana was the better player from 04-08). But I'm not sure that's the real issue. And I am glad he's a Twin and I hope he goes into the HOF. But he is a frustrating player to watch for several reasons that have been mentioned.

 

I was just posting re: Mauers years....so has Nick got his question answered???

 

Good thread, with no answer, that would answer, the question.

 

I love that, is what baseball is about;)....good discussions with no right answer!!!

[Squirrel]

Okay, okay ... moderator note here ... before this gets completely derailed, let's take a breath. If you think things are getting personal, report and walk away, don't add to it. Otherwise keep the debate civil. Thanks.

[Jerr]

Okay, okay ... moderator note here ... before this gets completely derailed, let's take a breath. If you think things are getting personal, report and walk away, don't add to it. Otherwise keep the debate civil. Thanks.

 

Yes, and for Nick's question? There are multitudes of answers, depending on one's opinion;)

[Guest USAFChief]

Only, no. MOST IMPORTANT, yes.

 

I wish people didn't suck so hard at numbers. Math is not your enemy, folks. Embrace it.

 

1. I don't watch baseball for math lessons. Again, YMMV.

 

2. Irregardless of #1, I believe there is more to scoring runs than OBP.

[snepp]

2. Irregardless of #1, I believe there is more to scoring runs than OBP.

 

Grit?

[Brock Beauchamp]

1. I don't watch baseball for math lessons. Again, YMMV.

 

2. Irregardless of #1, I believe there is more to scoring runs than OBP.

 

And that's fine but the numbers simply do not back you up, particularly in the context of this article.

 

Again, math. Anecdotal arguments

[TheLeviathan]

Well, so much for that largely civil discussion.

[Craig Arko]

Grit?

 

John Wayne or Jeff Bridges?

 

By the way, Reusse has a nice article up today about the loss of Michael Hirschbeck. For my nickel, I think that bit deserves a lot more promotion than the piece which this whole morass was based on.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Okay, I will apologize. I was a bit aggressive but honestly, I can't see how anyone doesn't acknowledge the greatness of Mauer.

 

I'll bow out now. I said my piece.

[cmathewson]

That wasn't what I said either. And also, he isn't one of the 20 best players in baseball.

 

He does a lot of things well including the most important thing - not making outs - but he also does a lot of things that frustrate people. Including, and most especially, not *seemingly* caring about driving in runs when that is more important than having another base runner. That, I believe, is the main reason people get upset with him.

 

That Mauer is not one of the top 20 players in all of baseball is an unqualified opinion. Right now? Over the course of his career? I could make an argument that he is most certainly one of the top five over the course of his career. If I had to say, he's one of the 10 most valuable right now. But then, I value OBP.

 

As to not seeming to care whether he drives in runs, that's a ridiculous statement. For several years in a row, he's been among league leaders in BA with runners on base and in scoring position. Yes, he takes walks in those situations as well. But that is because he's being pitched around.

[JB_Iowa]

This thread may not have articulated all of the reasons WHY Mauer is a lightning rod but it is pretty clear from this thread that he IS a lightning rod.

[Mr. Brooks]

That Mauer is not one of the top 20 players in all of baseball is an unqualified opinion. Right now? Over the course of his career? I could make an argument that he is most certainly one of the top five over the course of his career. If I had to say, he's one of the 10 most valuable right now. But then, I value OBP.

 

As to not seeming to care whether he drives in runs, that's a ridiculous statement. For several years in a row, he's been among league leaders in BA with runners on base and in scoring position. Yes, he takes walks in those situations as well. But that is because he's being pitched around.

 

Is Shin Soo Choo a top 5 player in baseball?

 

I'm sorry, Mauer is a great player, but I'm afraid I can't get on the bandwagon that you just sort by OBP and there is your list of best players in baseball. So much more to the game than JUST getting on base, especially when some of the sluggers also have an OBP that is at least in the neighborhood of Mauer's.

[Brock Beauchamp]

So for those keeping score at home:

 

Stupid: not acceptable.

 

Dumb: acceptable.

 

Can we get a list of which simile's of stupid are acceptable and which are not? Posting in a forum should not be this confusing.

 

Don't use either.

 

And yes. I used one of those. I apologized for it.

[Craig Arko]

This thread may not have articulated all of the reasons WHY Mauer is a lightning rod but it is pretty clear from this thread that he IS a lightning rod.

 

Yeah, although so are Florimon, Bartlett, Burton, Correia, etc., and pretty much any member of the coaching staff or front office. When you make thunderstorms the lightning is going to strike someplace.

[Mr. Brooks]

Yeah, although so are Florimon, Bartlett, Burton, Correia, etc., and pretty much any member of the coaching staff or front office. When you make thunderstorms the lightning is going to strike someplace.

 

True, but none of those players would go 7 pages in 12 hours.

 

A Burton thread might not go 7 posts in 12 hours.

[jokin]

Okay, I will apologize.

 

I was a bit aggressive

 

but honestly, I can't see how anyone doesn't acknowledge the greatness of Mauer.

 

I'll bow out now. I said my piece.

 

Nah, you were just showing "True Grit".

 

And Jeff Bridges didn't have a better exit line than yours, either.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Nah, you were just showing "True Grit".

 

And Jeff Bridges didn't have a better exit line than yours, either.

 

Forget it, Jake. This is Chinatown.

[D. Hocking]

Randball had a column a year or two ago that was basically Mauer -- most controversial non-controversial figure, or most interesting boring guy (or something like that). This thread reflects that a bit. He does generate a bit of discussion. Still, even though things got a little heated at times, I suspect things could have gotten really ugly on this topic on other forums.

 

Kudos for no complete meltdown by anyone.

[Bark's Lounge]

I hate the Kardashians. If we break it down to the basics, Joe Mauer has become one of the Kardashians.

 

Once upon a time a baseball player could play in this city without being scrutinized wrongfully. Kent Hrbek can do no wrong, Puckett is a prophet of god, Harmon Killebrew is the nice guy who is the best of the rest.

 

WTF!!! Have we all lost our minds?!!!

 

Social media has spoiled us and ****ed up everything sacred and left me feeling at a deficit.

 

Hrbek likes to drink a beer or two, and Killebrew may have kept his private life close to the vest, I am sure he has his sins, Puckett was probably a wife beater.... Mauer is the ho-hum boy from everyone's neighborhood in St. Paul.

 

Modern times have ****ing destroyed us. We rely on too many unworthy tidbits to relay to us the truth.

 

Modern media has let us down, It is twisted and bent on a fantastic outcome.

 

Leave Joe Mauer alone. He has not done anything to draw Hollywood attention, he quietly hits .320 and OPS's .875.

 

The god of the Twins is Kirby Puckett and he supposedly held a gun to his wife's head.

He may have been the driving force in winning MN a World Series or Two - Oh well, he is a ****ty person.

[cmathewson]

Is Shin Soo Choo a top 5 player in baseball?

 

I'm sorry, Mauer is a great player, but I'm afraid I can't get on the bandwagon that you just sort by OBP and there is your list of best players in baseball. So much more to the game than JUST getting on base, especially when some of the sluggers also have an OBP that is at least in the neighborhood of Mauer's.

 

Shin Soo Choo might be one of the better players right now, but I would take Mauer's production since 2005 over Choo's, no? Part of Mauer's greatness is consistency over the last decade. When I say he's a top five player, that's what I mean. Few can claim his cumulative offensive contributions over that span. None have done it from the most valuable defensive position on the field.

[Old Twins Cap]

Math aside, I would like to hear of the signature moments from Mauer's career. What did he do in a game that shows everyone what Mauer is about? Boil all the statistics down, the OBP, the WARs, the Gold Gloves, throw them all into a cauldron and somebody tell me of one thing, one moment, one game, one at bat, that is a signature Mauer moment.

 

For me, there are two: Mauer fields a line-drive deflection off some flunky Twins pitcher, he was playing catcher, and ran up the first base line, gets the ball and then races back and dives to tag out Brett Gardner at the plate in Yankee Stadium. Not often you get that level of exertion out of Joe, but a singular play, athletic, heady and strong.

 

The other moment was also at Yankee Stadium, in the playoffs in, what was it, 2009? Phil Cuzzi just blows a call on a ball Mauer hits down the left-field line. Not only did the ball land fair, it was deflected toward the line by Melky Cabrera (?). And the money shot is Mauer checking up at 2B and looking somewhat indifferent as he heads back to the plate. Of course, the Twins lose again in New York and end up getting swept.

 

Mauer or no Mauer, a leadership guy has to provide something. It ain't going to be on defense anymore, so Mauer needs to do something more than pepper the LF of opposing teams with a series of bloops, flies and liners.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Why is Joe Mauer a lightning rod? Because he's the rod and not the lightning. Sure the rod is darn important, but it's not explosive. He's not a catcher anymore, he's a highly paid veteran leader first basemen, and highly paid veteran leader first basemen are supposed to be the lightning. They're supposed to be the vocal leader who bats cleanup, and hits a lot of home runs. The only problem is Justin Morneau circa 2009 is in the past. Who is going to be the lightning?

[cmathewson]

Randball had a column a year or two ago that was basically Mauer -- most controversial non-controversial figure, or most interesting boring guy (or something like that). This thread reflects that a bit. He does generate a bit of discussion. Still, even though things got a little heated at times, I suspect things could have gotten really ugly on this topic on other forums.

 

Kudos for no complete meltdown by anyone.

 

I'm surprised that so many fall on the anti-Mauer side, considering how he is regarded outside of Minnesota. I expected as much from a collection of Strib comentators, but not from people who know enough about baseball to admit that avoiding outs is the most important aspect of an offensive players' contributions.

[LaBombo]

Math aside, I would like to hear of the signature moments from Mauer's career. What did he do in a game that shows everyone what Mauer is about? Boil all the statistics down, the OBP, the WARs, the Gold Gloves, throw them all into a cauldron and somebody tell me of one thing, one moment, one game, one at bat, that is a signature Mauer moment.

 

 

Has there ever been a more succinct, precise, compact and yet comprehensive summary of how the Twins have utterly and lately abysmally failed to capitalize on having one of the best players in the history of the game for a decade?

[Linus]

I got censured for calling someone a moron that basically said that Mauer was an overrated, average ballplayer. Since I am not aiming this sentiment at a specific person I assume it will be allowed this time

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Math aside, I would like to hear of the signature moments from Mauer's career. What did he do in a game that shows everyone what Mauer is about? Boil all the statistics down, the OBP, the WARs, the Gold Gloves, throw them all into a cauldron and somebody tell me of one thing, one moment, one game, one at bat, that is a signature Mauer moment.

 

For me, there are two: Mauer fields a line-drive deflection off some flunky Twins pitcher, he was playing catcher, and ran up the first base line, gets the ball and then races back and dives to tag out Brett Gardner at the plate in Yankee Stadium. Not often you get that level of exertion out of Joe, but a singular play, athletic, heady and strong.

 

The other moment was also at Yankee Stadium, in the playoffs in, what was it, 2009? Phil Cuzzi just blows a call on a ball Mauer hits down the left-field line. Not only did the ball land fair, it was deflected toward the line by Melky Cabrera (?). And the money shot is Mauer checking up at 2B and looking somewhat indifferent as he heads back to the plate. Of course, the Twins lose again in New York and end up getting swept.

 

Mauer or no Mauer, a leadership guy has to provide something. It ain't going to be on defense anymore, so Mauer needs to do something more than pepper the LF of opposing teams with a series of bloops, flies and liners.

I think the signature characteristic of Joe Mauer is (when healthy) he is the most consistently very good hitter to have played the game. Doing so from the catcher position doesn't matter anymore as it is only contextual to the past.

[D. Hocking]

And the money shot is Mauer checking up at 2B and looking somewhat indifferent as he heads back to the plate.

 

I know he gets criticized for being unemotional, but I would think this is one time where it was important for him to remain calm and cool and not let his emotions get to him, since he had to immediately go to bat again - where he did get another hit.

[jokin]

Shin Soo Choo might be one of the better players right now, but I would take Mauer's production since 2005 over Choo's, no? Part of Mauer's greatness is consistency over the last decade. When I say he's a top five player, that's what I mean. Few can claim his cumulative offensive contributions over that span.

 

None have done it from the most valuable defensive position on the field.

 

I think the signature characteristic of Joe Mauer is (when healthy) he is the most consistently very good hitter to have played the game. Doing so from the catcher position doesn't matter anymore as it is only contextual to the past.

 

 

Although not the definitive jab at Mauer, many use the argument about his lack of durability, and the disturbing trend to even less and less of that trait and less and less value derived from a part-time catcher- to being positionally misplaced to derive full value as a full-time 1st Baseman.

 

Since 2004- 54.5% of all possible games started at Catcher.

Since 2005- 58.7% of all possible games started at Catcher.

Since 2007- 52.1% of all possible games started at Catcher.

Since 2009- 49.4% of all possible games started at Catcher.

 

(FWIW, I advocated the "Carlos Santana plan" in the wake of his first injury in 2004- we might be talking about a guy already well-past 2000 hits and much healthier as he heads into his 30s).

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I'm surprised that so many fall on the anti-Mauer side, considering how he is regarded outside of Minnesota. I expected as much from a collection of Strib comentators, but not from people who know enough about baseball to admit that avoiding outs is the most important aspect of an offensive players' contributions.

As the Vikings fans here know, the most popular guy on a losing football team is the backup quarterback. Joe's the quarterback of this team. It doesn't matter how many outs he's avoided if the team loses 90 games, he's still the quarterback of a 90 fame losing team.

 

Truthfully I'm a fan of what Mauer did as a catcher. He was one of the greatest catchers we may ever see play this game. I'm reserving judgement as a first basemen.

 

I understand where a lot of the issue is with Joe. He isn't the player, that so many fans want him to be.